Trans sibling in law

[Primrose86]

DH's sibling has just come out as a man. She is 26 and autistic, lives at home with mum, spends life on the Internet, got kicked out of school at 16 etc etc She has plans to go overseas and transition in germany where apparently you can get surgeries on the public health system while living with her grandpa. Her mum is fully supportive of this.

How should I react to all this. Should I start referring to him as my brother in law? What usually happens after people come out. I assume they progress to hormones and surgery but honestly based on what I read, Germany is quite resistant to health tourists who never paid in even if they are citizens. Are people really happy identifying as another gender when they wouldn't look like the other gender?

In Germany, as in the UK, citizenship and language skills have nothing whatsoever to do with whether an individual has a right to free at the point of use non emergency, planned medical treatment.

In the UK residency is the key issue.

In Germany you have to be paying into health insurance, and you have to be a resident AND either an employee in Germany (or the spouse or minor age child - in some cases child up to age 27 if still in uninterrupted full time education - of a person employed in Germany and resident in Germany) for state health insurance.

Unemployed people who have previously worked in Germany remain insured, but someone who moves to look for work remains/ legally has to remain insured in their country of origin for two years or until they begin employment in Germany, and in that time is only entitled to emergency care and pregnancy and childbirth care. Self employed people have to pay for private health insurance which often means paying up front or being billed personally for any non emergency treatment and being reimbursed afterwards (if employed, the employer pays half the insurance and the employee half, if self employed the individual pays both contributions).

Basically to be entitled to free at the point of use non urgent health care, a new arrival needs to be employed in Germany. The individual also needs to register a residential address and have a German bank account, but being on an employer's payroll is the tricky part for someone not actually seeking employment but just arriving to access healthcare.

This is easy to look up on the official German government website.

I'd be worried for them, they sound very vulnerable.

I'd suggest if you have already backed away somewhat from the complex family dynamics that you don't put yourself in the midst of a big family fall out.

I would think about finding out HOW easily they could end up having life changing surgery. If the reality is it will be very hard for them to access I'd not worry too much.

Great advice here.

@Primrose86 from what you’ve written it definitely feels you should keep this person close in a rescpectful, open but not totally captured way. The mum sounds like she has her own issues and your partner will also, inevitably. Alll their years of family/ sibling relationships will be overlaid on this issue.

Honestly? I’d just try and have some downtime with your sibling in law. Sounds like she just need someone who takes an interest in her and loves her for who she is. And also like she needs some levity and fun.

Honestly it's not really necessary for you to have an opinion. The person in question doesn't need much in the way of support or contact from their brother's wife. I see my siblings' spouses and my spouse's siblings once or twice a year, we are polite, we share a drink or a meal, and that's it, I don't have reason to talk about them much so don't tend to need to use pronouns about them. If any of them transitioned I don't think that would change at all because as I'm not sexist there's no fundamental difference in how I treat men and how I treat women. If they are going to emigrate to Germany to get medical treatment you'll probably see even less of them for the many many years until that multi-stage process is done. Your spouse can decide independently how to interact with his sibling.

People can't change sex, but a 26 year old of either sex has the right to choose their own path and choose their own beliefs and if their beliefs lead them to think they need to have major surgery to feel better about themselves they have the right to do so and to pursue any legal means to achieve that. Whether or not you or I or anyone thinks they are making a massive mistake and will regret it when they find out they are still facing the same problems post-surgery (but now with permanent post-surgical issues) it is none of our business.

@RareGoalsVerge that is the perfect response. No need for drama, virtue signalling, opposition or rifts. Each to their own without compromising your own ethics. Amen!

The once or twice a year isn't that realistic as she lives 2 miles from me. And MIL's other kids have left.

She already spends large chunks of time in germany and we still saw each other lots. You could be right and I may see her less but actually dh and I were her main contact outside her mother. So when we tried to distance ourselves it wasn't well received and fundamentally I don't think it's sustainable. We only managed to keep it up cos I told MIL dh was struggling with mental health and I with pregnancy so needed space. Don't think it's sustainable. Now that there is a great grandchild on the same continent as DH's grandpa we would probably be expected go visit Germany more often.

Sure, @RareGoalsVerge , but the question is, why? This is a recent phenomenon, which hardly ever happened decades ago, and I think we all treat that "Joan of Arc was trans, and so was Liz I" bollocks with the contempt it deserves. Young people (mostly girls) should not be put under this kind of pressure.

Hi, German here. Nah, the German system does not take people in who don't have German health insurance, which is either employer-based (affordable) or private (excruciatingly expensive).

Probably your in-law is taken in by the fact that many German institutions, including much of healthcare, are currently thoroughly captured, though there are the usual determined women slogging along trying to push back.

It all smacks of social contagion and I'd try to offer the mother some critical perspectives. I'd respect the in-law's wishes regarding pronouns in her presence, but not otherwise. Not good to mangle biological fact. Good luck!

You wouldn't need pronouns in their presence, they are used when the person isn't there and can't hear them, so that's OK. I'd step back from the whole thing and let your husband deal with his sister, if he wants to.

It is kind of you to worry about this woman, OP, especially since it appears that no one else in her family appears to. Her Mum ( according to your DH , and I tend to agree with him) just wants to get this person out of her home, the other siblings don’t seem to be involved, even DH doesn’t seem to be particularly concerned. Although it appears that she will find it difficult to access ‘affirmative’ healthcare interventions in Germany, this will probably lead to more disappointment and disassociation: the envisaged ‘solution’ has been denied.

But…. You are going to be very, very busy soon, with a new baby, and ironically your hormones are going to be disrupted so your emotions may be more volatile. Put on your own life jacket, OP. Call your SiL by her new name, that’s a courtesy and on the whole Male names used by women seem less grating than the excessively ‘female’ names often used by TIM ( ‘Barbie’ springs to mind). Pronouns in address don’t matter as ‘you’ in English is not gendered. I would use the pronouns DH uses when she is not present, but I hope you will have other and more joyous things to discuss soon.💐

If someone worked a few shifts in hospitality would that qualify them for health insurance.

I have lived in germany before and got health insurance (even though I was only an intern and never contributrd before) as my dh had paid employment as part of his degree.

You have your baby to focus on, this is all a red herring. I'd park it, keep calm, and focus on your well being.

It seems like an attempt to take the focus off you and your DP and your baby, just think about you three. Best of luck.

I don’t think you need to do or say anything. Call her by her preferred name. Avoid debates about identity. This is my strategy anyway, it’s not something I’m interested in talking about, although I like to be respectful

So. Many. Autistic. Girls.

The issue - that 'this is what girls are / like / want / wear / do / feel / fancy / are expected to be and do' etc artificial bullshit that's causing neurodivergent women and girls especially to say 'nope, I'm out'.

So many walk away from the whole business of trying to run the 'girl' programme in a female body with a mind that rejects it, and can only see transitioning as the way to make that escape happen.

Partner's oldest friend's daughter is 15, autistic and gay. The full monty. And she now thinks she's a boy, which upsets her dad mainly because she does not have the first idea what it is to be a teenage boy, which he does.

More and more I think what's needed is the very thing that's labelled 'conversion therapy' (ie A Bad Thing). Robust, compassionate, expert, supportive psychiatric, educational, social care for families affected to help them get through it and past it (which so many do).

When you're talking, you don't need pronouns other than 'you' and I don't use people's names when talking to them. So you can side step it.

And when talking about them I'll use whatever name they want, as I would with a friend's nickname. But I avoid pronouns generally to avoid being cowed into forced speech.

It's a mess.

What does the sibling want?

How are other members of the family dealing with it?

Just follow the family trend and don't add to the mess.

You mean calling transgender people as "men in dresses" is not hate?
Wild take. But very fitting for this place. I guess if you redefine hate enough, you can live in it all the time and not even know it.

Describing reality is not “hate”.

How do we tell the difference between men wearing dresses who are crossdressing, and men wearing dresses who are women? Is there some kind of outward sign that would tell us their inner state: performance artist or true believer?

This all sounds awfully like a religion. Some people wearing the clothes of the opposite sex are just wearing the clothes of the opposite sex. But some have magically become or truly believe themselves to be the opposite sex.

Do we duck them on ducking stools to find out which is which? Do they have to do good works to prove their case? Or say the “right” words? Or will a sign from God appear to let us know which is which? Pray tell…!

I am not sure. She wants to be a man and get surgeries.

Her mum is fully supportive, her other siblings are socially conservative (one is a trump supporter) and bewildered but they don't live in the same country so it's easier to ignore it I suppose.

What is good is that she doesn't talk much about trans issues in the uk even though it is so heavily politicised. I think it is because she believes that she wouldn't stay in the uk so it's all irrelevant to her what the 'terfs' think. I fear this may run out of steam as pp have pointed out her plan wouldn't work. She doesn't even seem particularly bothered at the moment the waiting list for trans adult nhs care is very long other than commenting it's depressing.

But this would all change once she realizes her emigration plans to greener pastures wouldn't work. Based on past experience, if there is a contentious issue that she cares deeply about, she is like a dog with a bone. And will bring it up at every opportunity and it is impossible to have a civilised conversation.

Dh believes that her mother also triggers her on purpose as the mum is hoping she would be a carer in later life (usual thing with the autistic stay at home child being carer for elderly parent) and so a way of ensuring sibling stays at home is ensuring she is so hostile that she can't find a flatmate or love or conventional workplace which is generally a prerequisite for moving out these days. I guess her being trans doesnt help..She isn't opposed to her moving to her grandpa's house because in her mind, her grandpa would pass on one day and if sibling in law is there, it may even complicate her brother taking the house

Health insurance is mandatory in Germany, there is no way to remain uninsured. Even jobseekers from outside the EU must get insurance. As soon as someone finds an employer, they will register you for statutory health insurance. You can also go private, but it's expensive.

BUT even once they get insurance, this is definitely going to be long way through a very strange, very inflexible system. Starting any sort of transitional treatment will require a diagnosis from a psychiatrist, and I've read recently that people have to wait years for a consultation.

If someone worked a few shifts in hospitality would that qualify them for health insurance.

It depends if these few shifts earn enough money to be above the threshold that requires paying taxes and the various insurances (a bit like NI but broken down into unemployment, health, care, ..) if it's below that threshold and a few hospitality shifts almost certainly will be then no, she won't be insured. This used to catch out a lot of women who worked a few hours to supplement family income and were health insured via their husbands (like you were when in D) and found themselves uninsured when they divorced. This isn't happening now as much because I don't think I know a woman that doesn't work full time or almost full time but it did and still can happen.
The German benefits system is contribution based not means tested there's been a bit of a shift but it's still mostly true.

If someone moves to Germany and obtains insurance, would they usually be expected to declare any pre-existimg conditions for the insurance to be valid? Obviously if you qualify for health insurance and then break a leg or develop a new serious illness then that would be covered, but to obtain the necessary diagnosis to access gender-reassignment surgery they'd have to give details of longstanding gender dysphoria and I'd expect the insurers to have Ts&Cs to say that they therefore shouldn't have ro pay for the surgery. Like you can't buy Buildings Insurance if your house is already on fire.

BUT even once they get insurance, this is definitely going to be long way through a very strange, very inflexible system. Starting any sort of transitional treatment will require a diagnosis from a psychiatrist, and I've read recently that people have to wait years for a consultation.

I really think that has changed very recently, the new law that the old government pushed through means there is no requirement for the psychiatrist assessment. The new coalition could change this but I doubt that is high on their list. I met, very briefly, an 18 year old German girl last year who identifies as non-binary, who had both breast removed including nipples by her own gynecologist mother. She was hosted by a friend of mine in an exchange program, I have never seen her or my similar age daughter who also met her so lost for words.

No, because of the way the German health system works which requires you to have insurance, (gesetzliche) health insurances in turn are required to provide a basic health insurance to anyone irrespective of pre-existing conditions. The private insurances can charge you whatever they think is justified but the ones that you get enrolled in by your employer have to accept you. Same goes for students. I paid something like 35 Deutsche Mark a month when I was a student long before the Euro.

@Igneococcus I understand they have to accept you, but I'd be surprised if they aren't allowed to vary the premiums based on preexisting conditions. If someone emigrates into Germany with a chronic condition requiring ongoing treatment like diabetes or who has had a form of cancer that has a high probability of recurrence, are they not allowed to charge a higher premium? Are there never circumstances where an insurer can legitimately say that a condition can't be covered under a similar principle to the "buying Buildings Insurance when your house is already on fire" scenario which a court would surely agree is dishonest?