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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans sibling in law

989 replies

Primrose86 · 12/06/2025 18:40

DH's sibling has just come out as a man. She is 26 and autistic, lives at home with mum, spends life on the Internet, got kicked out of school at 16 etc etc She has plans to go overseas and transition in germany where apparently you can get surgeries on the public health system while living with her grandpa. Her mum is fully supportive of this.

How should I react to all this. Should I start referring to him as my brother in law? What usually happens after people come out. I assume they progress to hormones and surgery but honestly based on what I read, Germany is quite resistant to health tourists who never paid in even if they are citizens. Are people really happy identifying as another gender when they wouldn't look like the other gender?

OP posts:
TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 23:02

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:23

Honestly I believe some people do deny their existence.

If you don’t believe in the validity of gender, you can’t believe that it’s possible to be trans gender, which therefore denies the existence of whole groups of people.

Certainly their existence in the context they recognise.

If you deny a Schizophrenic man is Jesus, though he says he is, are you suggesting he "doesn't exist"?

People eXisT! As either a male human being, or a female human being. Not believing in a person's sexual fetishes or religious beliefs or schizophrenic delusions doesn't mean we think they don't 'eXiSsssst!'.

They exist. As human beings. That's it.

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 23:03

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:25

That’s also an interesting fact, but doesn’t imply that 95% of men are criminals. That’s quite different.

It also doesn’t imply that 100% of them have the capability to be if they just don’t control themselves, which is what the PP said.

Why do you think we have separate facilities for males and females? Have you ever even bothered to consider why?

Coatsoff42 · 17/06/2025 23:06

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.

It probably helps that you are allowed to say you don’t believe in a Muslim god. Which for a long time gender critical people were not allowed to do. No debate. Lose your job etc etc.

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 23:06

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.

Do these people's religious beliefs impact on others, the way trans metaphysical beliefs impact on females?

No.

That's the difference.

murasaki · 17/06/2025 23:08

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 23:02

If you deny a Schizophrenic man is Jesus, though he says he is, are you suggesting he "doesn't exist"?

People eXisT! As either a male human being, or a female human being. Not believing in a person's sexual fetishes or religious beliefs or schizophrenic delusions doesn't mean we think they don't 'eXiSsssst!'.

They exist. As human beings. That's it.

Well quite. I may well wish some people didn't exist but they do and there's nothing I can do about it.

So refusing to believe in some people's beliefs doesn't mean they don't exist as human beings. I just don't see them as they wish to be seen and never will. If Dp declared tomorrow that he was Napoleon, I wouldn't buy him an appropriate hat and declare him emperor of the house, I'd get him to the doctor pronto. And call his dad.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:08

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 23:03

Why do you think we have separate facilities for males and females? Have you ever even bothered to consider why?

Because some females feel safer in an environment where there are no males present, and no likelihood that they will be. For a variety of reasons, all of which are linked to privacy, dignity or safety.

Which still doesn’t mean that 100% of men would be violent if left unchecked. It means they enough of them have been to make some women want/need a separate space.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 23:13

I think the difference is so obvious that the comment is probably just disingenuous. If it helps though, if I was required to pledge my allegiance to said god, or put my own rights second to pander to believers of that god or deny that not having a belief in that god was a valid position, I would absolutely have something to say about that too.

BarBellBarbie · 17/06/2025 23:16

I would respect their belief and use their preferred pronouns, but internally have my own thoughts. I would see no need to cause a falling out.

Boiledbeetle · 17/06/2025 23:20

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.

If I'm walking through town and there is a street preacher that's fine he can say what he likes, but if he singles me out telling me to repent or I'll go to hell then I'll tell him bog off and his God doesn't exist and he is impinging on my right to quiet enjoyment of my life.

If a Muslim co worker at work wants to go to the office prayer room and pray no skin off my nose, but if a Muslim coworker tried to impose the rules of her religion on me or insists I go and pray then I'll tell her to bog off and her God doesn't exist as she is impinging on my right to not believe.

If a man thinks he's a woman and wants to be called Susan that's fine no skin off my nose, I'm known by more than one name, different people know me as different names. But if that man insists I agree he is a woman and refer to him as she and that I should accept him in my female only spaces I'll tell him to bog off and that he's a man.

I'll respect anyone's beliefs until they try to involve me or force me or insist I share their beliefs, then I'll tell them I don't.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 23:32

The equivalent of the trans movement, until very recently here and still in some countries, was that the street preacher could tell you to repent and you are going to hell Beetle and you’d have to agree because if not he could get you sacked, report you to the police for hate speech, who would take action, or set a mob of baying thugs on you. The police/CPS would turn a blind eye to that though.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:47

Boiledbeetle · 17/06/2025 23:20

If I'm walking through town and there is a street preacher that's fine he can say what he likes, but if he singles me out telling me to repent or I'll go to hell then I'll tell him bog off and his God doesn't exist and he is impinging on my right to quiet enjoyment of my life.

If a Muslim co worker at work wants to go to the office prayer room and pray no skin off my nose, but if a Muslim coworker tried to impose the rules of her religion on me or insists I go and pray then I'll tell her to bog off and her God doesn't exist as she is impinging on my right to not believe.

If a man thinks he's a woman and wants to be called Susan that's fine no skin off my nose, I'm known by more than one name, different people know me as different names. But if that man insists I agree he is a woman and refer to him as she and that I should accept him in my female only spaces I'll tell him to bog off and that he's a man.

I'll respect anyone's beliefs until they try to involve me or force me or insist I share their beliefs, then I'll tell them I don't.

That’s fair enough, I’d probably just ignore them because you can’t send me to a hell I don’t believe in.

Boiledbeetle · 18/06/2025 00:10

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:47

That’s fair enough, I’d probably just ignore them because you can’t send me to a hell I don’t believe in.

So you'd just be quiet and wouldn't say anything? In all the examples?

Let someone else shove their beliefs in my face and what? take it with a smile on my face?

Allow them to think that everyone shares their views and belief?

Allow someone to insist I ignore my own beliefs and wishes to acquiesce to them?

Yeah, that doesn't work for me.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/06/2025 00:16

Oh well if you don’t actually get sent to hell physically it’s fine 🙄

Merrymouse · 18/06/2025 00:21

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with

People don’t usually get sacked for e.g. saying they’d rather not swear an oath on the Bible.

People have been sacked for saying that e.g. a rape crisis centre should be transparent about the sex of staff or that prisons should be single sex.

There have been some high profile cases in recent years, and the Conservatives belatedly realised it was politically advantageous to oppose Labour on this issue, but for a long time, it was only covered by a handful of female journalists, who paid a professional price.

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2025 00:55

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:47

That’s fair enough, I’d probably just ignore them because you can’t send me to a hell I don’t believe in.

'just ignore them'

You know that thing we've been staying throughout this thread about over privileged and out of touch?

Well yeah, that.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 18/06/2025 06:26

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 22:29

Well if they recognise themselves as being the opposite sex to the one they actually are, obviously we are not going to agree with that.

Not believing in gender doesn't amount to denying trans people's existence, any more than not believing in God doesn't amount to denying the existence of Christians.

We just don't share their beliefs, that's all.

Christian's exist???

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/06/2025 06:30

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:47

That’s fair enough, I’d probably just ignore them because you can’t send me to a hell I don’t believe in.

Unfortunately you can't "just ignore" a trans identifying man who is sexually assaulting you in a women's toilet.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 18/06/2025 06:34

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.

Do you think we're walking up to trans people and telling them they're ridiculous?

Of course we aren't. If they're just getting on with their day, we're just getting on with ours.

If a Christian was telling you that you must believe in what they believe in or else we're discriminating against them, denying their existence, causing them offence, removing their rights or whatever then of course I would be telling them that I found their views ridiculous.

If a Muslim walked up to me and told me I had to give up my rights because they wanted them for their beliefs that I do not hold, of course I'd be telling them to do one.

Women are (rightly) up in arms because that's what's happening right now. We're being minimised and expected to be quiet and just accept the belief that men are now women and therefore we have to be uncomfortable and at risk, AGAIN, after having fought hard to get out rights they now want to violate.

Give trans people rights. Let them go about their day. Just leave women with the rights we've fought for and let us go about our day.

TheKeatingFive · 18/06/2025 07:38

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 18/06/2025 06:34

Do you think we're walking up to trans people and telling them they're ridiculous?

Of course we aren't. If they're just getting on with their day, we're just getting on with ours.

If a Christian was telling you that you must believe in what they believe in or else we're discriminating against them, denying their existence, causing them offence, removing their rights or whatever then of course I would be telling them that I found their views ridiculous.

If a Muslim walked up to me and told me I had to give up my rights because they wanted them for their beliefs that I do not hold, of course I'd be telling them to do one.

Women are (rightly) up in arms because that's what's happening right now. We're being minimised and expected to be quiet and just accept the belief that men are now women and therefore we have to be uncomfortable and at risk, AGAIN, after having fought hard to get out rights they now want to violate.

Give trans people rights. Let them go about their day. Just leave women with the rights we've fought for and let us go about our day.

Give trans people rights. Let them go about their day. Just leave women with the rights we've fought for and let us go about our day.

And of course transpeople already have the the rights that everyone else has, so job done on that front.

VagueVogue · 18/06/2025 08:16

I'd always refer to someone by their chosen gender and name out of basic respect and smooth relationships. It doesn't mean you privately see them the way they see themselves. Someone autistic of course feels a disconnect and conflict with their identity. It's criminal that they're being set on a path of lifetime medalicalisation. An unhappy young woman searching for answers isn't gonna get any playing dress up as a man.

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/06/2025 08:19

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.
For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

yeah i don’t do anything like that to anyone, except people who think trump is the mutts nuts and that anyone who didn’t get the covid jab is a ‘pureblood’ and even then i wouldn’t say they’re ridiculous….I am thinking it though! (i will absolutely change the subject if they want to talk about it, it won’t end well)

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/06/2025 08:21

It seems to be one extreme to the other on this subject…lots of posters saying that if someone thinks that you can’t change sex that you hate trans people and don’t think they exist etc

oh and telling me what i think and do when they absolutely no idea whatsoever

its2346 · 18/06/2025 08:24

AidaP · 12/06/2025 19:10

No, that's crossdressing.

But I am not here to educate transphobia central, just offering help to OP who seems to genuinely want to help and learn. So... Bye, keep arguing against DSM, Human Rights, UK law and everything else.

Genuine question … how do you know who is cross dressing and who is transgender if both are strangers to you?

SerafinasGoose · 18/06/2025 10:12

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/06/2025 08:19

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.
For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

yeah i don’t do anything like that to anyone, except people who think trump is the mutts nuts and that anyone who didn’t get the covid jab is a ‘pureblood’ and even then i wouldn’t say they’re ridiculous….I am thinking it though! (i will absolutely change the subject if they want to talk about it, it won’t end well)

Well, yes. It's an entirely disingenous false equivalence. And if it isn't, the least I can say it that it's not a very intelligent argument.

If my Muslim colleagues were demanding that I personally wear a hijab because the sight of my hair is disgusting; that I call myself by a Muslim name to indicate my adherence to the faith; that I ensconce myself in a period hut because my menstruation was offensive (compare the Christian practice of churching women's 'unclean' bodies after childbirth before they can be let out into the community), then yes: I think I'd be protesting very loudly that I was a non-believer and that these are not practices I follow. This, incidentally, is my response to any exhortation that I should announce 'my' pronouns and have a 'cis' label slapped onto me to which I do not consent.

But my Muslim colleagues do none of these things. They have the right to expect that I do not insult their prophet, which ofc, I would not do. It would serve no purpose as this would not in any way enhance or uphold my rights, either in terms of the protected category of sex or that of religious belief. Otherwise, they simply get on with their day and exercise the basic freedom to practice their faith as they wish. They are not encroaching on the protections of other groups, trying to police my speech, or demanding that I cede over my individual or categorical rights to them.

Compare aggressive trans rights activism - which does do all these things and openly threatens and intimidates women who will not comply. Aside from unintelligent, the comparison reeks of Islamophobia.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 18/06/2025 10:15

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:14

Any man can be dangerous if they just don’t control themselves?

Well, you are one, and I can’t speak on the male behalf. But what a pessimistic way to view the situation.

Porn use isn’t a uniquely male experience, and I’m not sure the whole of the male population does have the capability or inbuilt desire to not “behave well.”

I can't speak for all men either - some would disagree with me. However, I have seen enough, and experienced enough, to be sure that it is risky to assume that a man who appears to be safe will always be safe. How do damaging affairs start? Just talking about heterosexual ones, obviously a woman is also involved, so bad and risky behaviour is not confined to men. For example, flirting can be fairly innocent, but it is risky behaviour if the consequences of continuing are significant. Men don't have the same in-built concern about becoming pregnant, do they? So their barriers tend to be lower. The consequences are less obvious, less in our minds, even if we have been socialised to respect women and to behave well towards them.

One of the effects of testosterone is to reduce the inhibitions of risk - so young men, unused to the levels of testosterone they are experiencing, behave more riskily, for example when driving. They can feel invincible. Their bodies have rapidly become stronger. Physical capabilities and urges are both suddenly powerful, and without strong societal boundaries, what is there to restrain them? It takes time to bring those urges under control, and not every man wants to. And even with older men, life circumstances can sometimes affect their judgement and lower the barriers to selfish and risky behaviour. Mid life crises, excessive workloads, finding oneself in an unaccustomed position of power or even being adulated. Look at the behaviour of rock and pop stars, surrounded be admiring and adoring young women. It often seems to go to their heads and they ignore whatever values they held.

You can see with scandals in churches that power within a group setting can override strongly held principles and beliefs, even when someone wasn't always a wolf in sheep's clothing. We are vulnerable to primitive urges and to the drug of power.

None of this excuses us. But we are flawed and imperfect people.

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