How to talk about 'trans-girl' in my son's class.

[user1471471849]

Hello,

My son is 7 and there is a 6 year old trans-girl (aka a boy who identifies as a girl) in his school. It's a small school so everyone interacts with each other a lot. When the boy first socially transitioned and started wearing girls clothes and changed their name it was hard to know how to explain this to my son. He's a clever guy who asks hard questions and he was confused about what was going on. I went with the line that the child is a boy but is confused and feels he's a girl and not to bring it up to avoid arguments or hurt feelings.
Just to be clear, I don't agree with the parents' choice to socially transition such a young kid, I feel the kid is being pushed into this.. But it's not my place to say and I'm conscious of the poor kid's mental health and not wanting to make his life harder. To me, sex is binary and immutable but I knew that I'd eventually run into problems. Unfortunately, my son doesn't get on well with this kid and has made comments about him really being a boy. So we were called into the principal's office today saying the boy (or girl in the child's mind) is transgender and is a girl now. I explained what I'd told my son- that the child is biologically a boy but is confused and feels he's a girl and to not bring it up. I also said I wasn't willing to lie to my child and say that you can change sex and I got the impression that they agreed but said it's the school policy ( here and nationwide- in Ireland) to accept this.

Obviously, we don't want our son to be upsetting anyone so we'll make sure he knows to be very mindful of people's feelings but it's such a hard road to navigate (being truthful with him and trying to make sure he doesn't upset the child by passing on his thoughts on the matter- it's not a nice situation for anyone). I know we're going to come up against this again. The parents haven't said anything to us but I reckon it's only a matter of time.
If anyone has any advice on how I could manage this situation better please let me know.

Thanks.

It is emotional manipulation.

If you are on TRSOH you must believe this.
If you are a good person, you will place this lie above the truth.
If you are a good person you will place this single child's feelings above all the others.

Yet, the good people will be pressing for the ban on puberty blockers to be lifted, they will want to send this boy down the 'Dutch protocol' route to affirm his identity.

We haven't even touched on the specific damage this does to the girls in the class.

What? Gaslight kids into denying reality in order to indulge mendacious and entitled, anti science ideological activists, like. And, this interference in any child’s development is criminal. Or, should be. Let’s not harm Irish children any more, eh.

Sex is immutable, and pretending men aren’t actually men is not kind and will be worse for Irish women and girls. Even if they don’t fall for this ideology. The State is creating an environment where Irish women and girls will be uncaringly placed in situations where any man, so inclined, is given carte Blanche to abuse them. Even places where very vulnerable women who have been victims of male violence are served up to any male who wishes to have access to them in refuges, hospitals, and prisons. Also to any man who wishes to f^ck around with women’s sports, supposedly women’s groups and pretend they form part of female representation. Not to mention the anti science rubbish that is now being imposed on impressionable young minds in schools. Are they teaching about ‘flat earthism’ in Geography? And, the sun revolving around the earth? Why this particular anti science nonsense?

I thought we’d left all that behind. For a decade or two. But no; there is a new and even more misogynistic belief system in town! Now we have Irish women locked up with men who get to threaten to rape them. Without consequence. It’s a very kind ideology, isn’t it? Ah sure, as long as the lads get to do what they want to women again. That is the important thing. Not just the new priests pushing this bs, There are again many new nuns and Mother Mary Margarets to police women and to promote men’s desires.

Now it is not ‘harlot’, but unkind bigot when women won’t follow this new men’s entitlement ideology.

So true! Like schools sitting girls next to naughty boys to try and modify the boys behaviour.

Still happening in my kids’ school.

Went off at the deep end there!

Trans men exist too, they are half of the transgender community and obviously don't want to harm women. The fact that there are transgender people in the world isn't all about getting men into women's prisons or abusing women but the posters here actually like that is the sole reason transgenderism exists.

No one is asking children to believe anything, it is very normal to simply teach your children it is polite to address a person how they wish to be addressed.

I'm not sure where you're getting this 'sole reason TG exists' idea. Literally no one is saying that.

But actions have consequences. If we allow men to 'self identify' as women, then we will end up with men in women's prisons, sports, domestic violence shelters, rape crisis centre, etc, etc. Is that something you're onboard with? What about the women who will suffer?

And as for 'addressing people how they wish to be addressed' - well no. I can't compel anyone to call me 'her royal highness' or curtsey when they see me. They'd just laugh in my face and rightly so, because it's not good for society to try and get people to ignore reality.

“it is very normal to simply teach your children it is polite to address a person how they wish to be addressed.”

This is not quite the truth, though. In fact, this is dishonest.

It is not just using a chosen name. It is demanded language to support someone else’s philosophical belief.

It is dishonest to position it as being politeness to ‘address a person how they wish to be addressed.’ And again it is only in one direction, it is not giving any consideration to any one else’s needs here.

This is not kind.

Oops irish people know these women are part of the community.

The Irish state allows irish women to opt for self ID and opt out of womens health care and into the mens prison system. Is that nice or not?

And it was a vocal (in not a nice way) woman who wants to be a man who demanded the health service remove the word women from womens healthcare. The timing was offensive. The breach of the Plain English provision creates harm in the public health system.

The OP clearly stated the school wants the OPs child to believe the boy is now a girl.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be enough to address people how they wish to be addressed. That would be simply using their name and the pronouns you/your etc.

That is quite different to expecting people to refer to others in a factually incorrect way. People cannot change sex. In the English language, pronouns are used to differentiate between female and male people. Asking people to use language that contravenes that is not a reasonable expectation.

Look at the title on the forum.

Women's rights.

Trans identified women really cause remarkably little issues to women's rights: that would be entirely the trans identified men.

You do not mean what you say in that its 'polite' to address a person how they wish to be addressed, or you'd be supporting women in saying no to being called 'cis', called sexual racists for being homosexual instead of 'queer', saying reality exists and respecting their right to single sex spaces.

What you mean is that nice women teach their children to be submissive to trans people. And since this doesn't really have much impact on boys, the real issue is teaching young girls to be submissive to boys and men, and not have boundaries that those male people may find inconvenient.

That is obviously a bit of an issue to women here to talk about women's rights.

In fairness this thread had been in chat and survived in chat for some considerable time since it was started. (It's surprised me as normally threads get shunted off her sooner - I have been keeping an eye).

You really have no idea what I mean. Clearly.

Hi, just thought I'd update this thread. We had a meeting again today with the principal who said that our son had 'misgendered' a 'girl' twice (actually boy but they called the kid a girl). They said the whole school will be educated on this issue after Christmas. I asked if they were referring to a biological girl or biological boy and they just repeated a 'girl' (it's a boy who is identifying as a girl). I also said I didn't realise trans ideology would be thought in schools.

I asked if they were happy to lie to the whole school and they said it was a human right for the child to call themselves a girl, and was I up to date on the ethos of the school. My husband and I kind of laughed and I joked that he was now identifying as a woman too. There was so much I could have said, but to be honest it was so surreal to be having that conversation. They've got their minds made up. As far as I'm concerned the ethos of the school could be summarised as 'compassion at the expense of everyone else'.

We are taking our son out of the school after Christmas. It's a massive relief. We will homeschool for a while and look around for a better option. He was so stressed in there and I can see why. He was being asked to collude in a lie and ignore the evidence he could see with his own eyes. Massive safeguarding issue.

I thought the tide was turning a bit but we're still stuck in this situation. Maybe in a few years time it will be acceptable in Ireland to believe in biological reality and object to your kids being indoctrinated into a dangerous ideology.

What an utterly ridiculous response - especially arguing with you: a school governor.

I know you most probably aren't actually a school governor, but going by their own silly rules, it's a human right for you to call yourself one and be treated accordingly... right?

That’s horrendous @user1471471849. Illegal indoctrination of a whole school.

I know. I just couldn't help laughing! Also, thanks to mumsnet and years of research I've done on this issue, I'm well-versed on every argument they could have possibly made. It didn't feel appropriate to debate it. I almost felt sorry for them in that they just don't understand the issue and haven't thought things through but they've got their mind made up so no point discussing it really.

Call your local catholic school, they generally aren't pushing this agenda, and at least you know what you are getting with the rest of it. The Educate Togethers are looking to replace religion with "be kind" I think.

Good grief OP.
"Be kind" over "Don't lie", "be scientifically accurate", "have boundaries", safeguarding matters", "do no harm", "don't gaslight children", "be age appropriate", "develop an enquiring mind" and on and on.

This adult ideology is doing so much harm to our children. With the most vulnerable, mentally fragile children being targeted by dubious adults and organisations, pretending that sex change is the cure for their mental and physical discomfort. A complete safeguarding fail.

I make no apology for posting this link again which details the massive psychological harm done to young children when adults pretend that a child can change sex (written by a clinical psychologist).

https://www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

By that logical she may as well call herself the Principal!

they said it was a human right for the child to call themselves a girl, and was I up to date on the ethos of the school.

The child has a human right to ID as he wants.

Your child has a legal and consitutional and human right not to be forced to follow the other childs belief system.

I assume your child is not Catholic?
If he is the school is engaged in active relegion discrimination against you child as RC teaching has ruled that transgenderism is basicly saying God made a mistake when soul X went into body Y or in your schools Misogyny Belief " girl brain in a boy body " and Catholics cant hold that belief as is true

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/8/enacted/en/print#sec3

(e) that one has a different religious belief from the other, or that one has a religious belief and the other has not (the “religion ground”),

Technical point your Faith can be Christian not just RC etc or any faith which rejects GI for the RG section to apply.

We are taking our son out of the school after Christmas. It's a massive relief.

Rather than take you child out and both you and he be at a disadvantage for a term or longer can you push back?
You may be stuck trying to get your child into a new school mid year and he looses out on friendships and companionship for the period. And with the child deaths in the news I would expect the school to log the withdrawl with Social Services so you could end up with an open case file.

Rather ask that you child be removed from the classs which will be covering transgenderism as you see it as a belief and moral teaching which you are legally allowed to object to.

This web page (no association) covers some of the case law which has come up (read and replace the word religion with Moral value)
https://teachdontpreach.ie/right-to-not-attend-religious-instruction/

And your legal basis
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/51/section/30/enacted/en/html#sec30

(e) shall not require any student to attend instruction in any subject which is contrary to the conscience of the parent of the student or in the case of a student who has reached the age of 18 years, the student.

Then make it a school supervision problem by instructing your child to not interact with the other child in class or on the play ground and have the school put a system in place to support the decision.

I am sure the school ethos has a support all faiths and none section.

Can all that apply if the child is of no faith?

Because the school is essentially requiring belief in gender ideology from all students. It's very similar to forcing all students to believe in a particular religion.

No child of 6/7/8 whatever even has a gender identity. Even the captured NHS won’t entertain it.

This child is being abused and let down by their parents and those that should love them.

The school should be reporting the parents to social services. There’s no way a 7 year old understands what transitioning means. My little boy used to wear princess dresses… it was a phase. He wanted to be a mermaid as well. I didnt automatically think gosh he must need to transition. I think you’ve explained it well to your son.

We're lapsed catholics and our kids are no religion, we didn't baptise them. To be honest, this is just the last straw for us. The whole environment is toxic and they haven't been treating our son well so we were veering strongly towards taking him out anyway. He's strong willed, extroverted and doesn't automatically bow to authority- he always wants to know the reasons for things- so he was unlikely to just accept this as fact. I obviously want to protect his sense of curiousity and independent thought so he's outta there.
I feel so sorry for the kid who's being socially transitioned and for all the other children in the school. We were probably the only parents who would say something to the principal. Maybe others will do something when they realise what's coming after Christmas. It feels like being in a dystopian sci-fi novel.

Your poor son and the poor children in that class being forced to pretend like this. What it must do to small children to be penalised for being honest and bullied into perpetuating a lie. What confusion they must feel. How they must wonder whether they can trust adults at all!

Yes it applies to a child with no faith

The RC bit is because most children in the ET will have RC parents and may be brought up loosely in the RC faith so that a specific discrimination.

The Dont Preach website link is about children who follow no faith.

Article 42 give parents rights to be the decision maker on moral and social values. Section 3.2 on education would oblige the school to show how the State (not the school) has adopted the schools version of GI as being factual but the State will not have done this as the RCC still control the majority of schools and under RC faith law the RC school ethos can not teach that "God put a girl brain in a boy body"

Article 42A gives the child rights to his own belief

Article 44 to attend the school without the schools belief in GI

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#article42

EDUCATION
ARTICLE 42
1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.
2 Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.
3 1° The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.
3 2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.
4 The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.
CHILDREN
ARTICLE 42A
1 The State recognises and affirms the natural and imprescriptible rights of all children and shall, as far as practicable, by its laws protect and vindicate those rights.

See the use of the word belief (highlighted by ● )

RELIGION
H5>ARTICLE 44
1 The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.
2 1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.
2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.
3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of
● religious profession,
● belief or
● status.
4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.
5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.
6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.