Does Imane Khelif even have a DSD?

[BeLemonNow]

Giving the widespread reporting of a previous test showing Imane Khelif is biologically male / XY is there actually any evidence as to whether or not they even have a Disorder of Sexual Development (DSD). Or is this straightforward fraud? I know there was speculation before...

By DSD, going by NHS information, in this case I mean XY chromosomes with an abnormality causing a baby's genitals to look female (but not a DSD where there's XY and some sort of penis even if smaller than normal). To be clear, I am aware that these differences are usually apparent by puberty. It looks likely Imane went through male puberty.

Apologies if this has been covered in a different thread, but I cannot see it anywhere. I am aware that the only IOC criteria to compete at the Olympics was a female passport - ridiculous really - but that Imane has been claiming to be living as a woman since birth.

Well, there's just no limit to people's stupidity, magical thinking skills, and propensity to worship the magical penis as the sine qua non of manhood.

Didn't we have the same debate about Yael Van der Wouden, who seems likely to be gonadally male, without an outbreak of 'misgendering'? Maybe because she has had feminisation treatment, or maybe because she won a women's book prize, rather than punching them in the face?:

^https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5354429-confusing-statement-about-treatment-for-intersex-being-a-victory-for-trans-community^

ETA has anyone complained to C4? I'm struggling with the wording.

“But I do think that arguments around male vs female can backfire because everyone is using them in different ways, whereas male puberty is a solid concept.”

Yes. Male puberty is a solid concept and experienced by male people with a male anatomy. That male anatomy is one that produces testosterone from testes.

I agree that there is sometimes confusion in what people mean when they refer to male and female.

However, accurately using language is what is ‘winning’ through clear communication. I have seen the progress that is made once the language is direct and clear. For example in the discussion about Khelif and Lin during the Olympics. Also during the NHS Fife case.

I don't know what's up with link.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5354429-confusing-statement-about-treatment-for-intersex-being-a-victory-for-trans-community

OK that seems to work...

Really?

I have pointed out that those who choose to prioritise their respect to censure people’s language choices about male athletes who have demanded access to female sports categories are prioritising those male athletes. You can say that you, personally, ‘care about women’ all you like. I don’t see that. I see someone who wishes to censure others by telling them they should use the specified language someone else wants.

“I have said, repeatedly now, that anyone who’s gone through male puberty should not be competing in women’s sports.”

Sure. Fine. You don’t agree that male athletes with male pubertal advantage should be included in female sport’s categories. But you also wish to tell others what language they should be using and you have used emotional reasoning to do so.

Both things are true.

How would you word a complaint to C4 about 'Trump vs the truth'? In it they showed Trump condemning the male boxers competing in the female category. C4 says Imane was born female and the IOC confirmed this. (It was this question that brought the thread back to life.) What's our proof that IK is male, given that C4 don't believe the IBO test.

I have pointed out that those who choose to prioritise their respect to censure people’s language choices about male athletes who have demanded access to female sports categories are prioritising those male athletes

@Helleofabore

Again you are misrepresenting what I said.

I was at pains to point out I was speaking about people with DSDs in general (the thread had moved in that direction) not about ‘male athletes who have demanded access to women’s sports’. I was countering arguments that said being trans and having a DSD were effectively the same thing.

I think it’s good to be clear when someone with a male physique is competing against women. I think the general public are well able to understand what a DSD means if explained properly, but I don’t have any problem with the male physicality of a competitor in women’s sports being emphasised. I welcome it. If that means male pronouns need to be used in those limited, specific circumstances (to avoid confusion) so be it.

In general I think it’s up to the person with the DSD to decide regarding their identity and pronouns and, as long as cheating or safety aren’t issues, I do think others should respect that.

You just need to point that the IOC hasn't "confirmed" that Khelif was born female.

See my previous posts r.e. that. They have stated it but it's misleading to say it's confirmed as they've not checked any evidence

All they required to compete is a female passport.

I was countering arguments that said being trans and having a DSD were effectively the same thing.

In the sporting context aka this thread that is largely correct - under the World Athletics Rules they are being merged.

Also evidence suggests that a significant sex gap emerges prior to puberty -3-5% in running. Higher in jumping and throwing.

Testosterone suppression can only partly counter this.

The C4 defence is built on an error made by a doctor who for whatever reason made the decision to categorise this male boxer as being a female infant.

The only thing that will provide the proof that such an organisation will be happy to accept is likely to be a test result provided under oath in a court case or an admission from Khelif. This is similar in some ways to the ‘legal sex’ argument that some people / organisations use. It is pretty much what the IOC will use. I doubt anything that I would say as a member of the public will make any difference at all.

I would word the complaint mentioning that Khelif has a body that has been formed around the production of small gametes, regardless whether he produces these gametes now, has done or will do. I would also point out that he has gone through male puberty and has male pubertal advantages even though this error was made in his infancy. I would also point out how it is not respectful, and is harmful, to female athletes to allow this person to compete as a female boxer.

You have seen me argue this point before, and it hasn’t changed at all. What do you believe you would use to convince them and that would be compelling that no expert in female sports, sports science or biology defending female sports has said about Imane Khelif already?

In a country where gender reassignment is illegal, a female passport is proof that the holder was registered female at birth. IOC hasn't required sex tests for donkey's years, so why read anything into this person not being tested? We might get forwarder with the admission of suppression of endogenous T, which no woman would require.

Cross-posted! I don't know; it wasn't me that originally asked, but I suspect C4 researchers are very invested in not listening 😟

“In general I think it’s up to the person with the DSD to decide regarding their identity and pronouns and, as long as cheating or safety aren’t issues, I do think others should respect that.”

Great. So us using male language for athletes such as Khelif and Semenya is absolutely fine then.

Shall we move the discussion on?

No. The C4 team will not be interested in presenting anything that has not been verified. I don’t believe it is in their interest to do so. Considering regulations around media coverage as well.

Consider what coverage Semenya gets even though it has been proven in court that Semenya has a body formed around the production of small gametes (regardless of production status of those gametes) and has evidence of going through male puberty and has a normal male testosterone production level. Semenya is generally referred to using as little reference to pronouns or female language as a journo who wants to remain truthful can get but is not clearly labelled ‘male athlete’ by mainstream media that I have seen. Or is referred to as a woman / female with naturally high testosterone etc in other mainstream media.

Have you seen anything different in mainstream media?

It's proof that they were registered female at birth. Not that they were actually born female.

Sure, but some of the discussion upthread was broader than IK, DSDs and sports. That’s what threads tend to do, expand.
So please stop criticising me for addressing those posts.

eg “We say NO to pandering to mentally ill males”.
That’s not someone talking about DSDs.

Nope. IAAF gave CS hurt feelings by using the m word in court. No less of a woman for having internal testicles (sic) apparently. 🤷‍♀️

Er, no. Helleofabore is the one that is in step with the legal and the medical profession. You are way out of step with both, and are on the losing side of this war.

Except he wasn't raised as a female. By all accounts, he was raised as a male and associated with boys in the neighbourhood.

He has 5ARD. Not CAIS or Swyer Syndrome.

Pronouns are the speakers choice.

Its the brain dead thought ending cry-bullying "respect peoples pronouns" that has the UK police running around like headless chickens. That had and still have senior officers tripping over themselves to create a class of non-crime hate crime records for mainly women who say no.

JKR challanged the Scottish Police to arrest her for that pronoun crime. Yet when faced with the financial resources and public scrutiny which would follow meekly concluded that no law was broken.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2021/14/section/4

(3)The characteristics are—
(a)age,
(b)disability,
(c)religion or, in the case of a social or cultural group, perceived religious affiliation,
(d)sexual orientation,
(e)transgender identity,

This ^ is giving special care to the Scottish Rapist Gender community.

11 (7)A person is a member of a group defined by reference to transgender identity if the person is—
(a)a female-to-male transgender person,
(b)a male-to-female transgender person,
(c)a non-binary person,
(d)a person who cross-dresses,
and references to transgender identity are to be construed accordingly.

(f)variations in sex characteristics.

11 (8)A person is a member of a group defined by reference to variations in sex characteristics if the person is born with physical and biological sex characteristics which, taken as a whole, are neither—
(a)those typically associated with males, nor
(b)those typically associated with females,
and references to variations in sex characteristics are to be construed accordingly.

This ^ is more special than other disability eg the blind or wheelchair bound

11 (3)A disability is a physical or mental impairment of any kind.
11 (4)For the purposes of subsection (3) (but without prejudice to its generality), a medical condition which has, has had, or may have a substantial or long-term effect, or is of a progressive nature, is to be regarded as amounting to an impairment.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/4

• age;
• disability;
• gender reassignment;
• marriage and civil partnership;
• pregnancy and maternity;
• race;
• religion or belief;
• sex;
• sexual orientation.

And women become second class citizens in womens single sex spaces and any other part of life when they campaign to lawfully exclude men in Scotland.

I really don’t know what you’re talking about.
I don’t think supporting people with DSDs to use the identity they are comfortable with is on the losing side of anything, or contrary to legal or medical opinion.
Again, this does NOT mean those with a male puberty should compete in women’s sport.

@AnSolas

I think it’s different when someone has a DSD. Not sure why trans etc are highlighted.

The case law relates to PAIS. A registered male who had feminising treatment and was allowed to correct his sex marker to female ex tunc. The reverse would also have been allowed.

There's no case law for 5-ARD and I doubt there will be now, but in practice these individuals can also correct their birth registration with medical evidence. Someone registered female can correct to male on diagnosis. Someone registered male can correct to female if they have feminising treatment (in theory - I wonder if it ever happens if they're raised male). This birth registration plus correction is the person's legal biological sex, nothing to do with GRCs.

CAIS and Swyer are legally biologically female, claims of male identity virtually unknown.

Because the male in question would be transgender class 11 (7) (b) under UK law.
He is male trying to be reclassified as female.