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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

1000 replies

loveyouradvice · 26/05/2025 23:04

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

OP posts:
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17
ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:22

Seethlaw · 28/05/2025 13:03

"I am a woman, who is trans. Not the other way around."

No. To be a trans woman, you need to be a man first. Literally.

See, that's why I don't like the terms trans wo/man: because it's another lie. I'm not a man who happens to be trans. I'm a woman who thinks she's a man for whatever reason. In the book "Transmania", the authors use the term "transmasculine woman", and that is something that feels right to me! I would use it if it didn't risk adding to the confusion.

To my knowledge (please correct me if I'm wrong), neither @AYoungTransWoman or myself have ever been what society would define as men. We both initiated treatment before reaching adulthood.

You could perhaps argue that we have experience of being boys, were you to completely deny our interiority and reject any notion that our experience of our own transness modulates that experience. It would still be inaccurate, but slightly less so.

RedToothBrush · 28/05/2025 17:22

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/05/2025 17:18

Love it when self identified experts with zero experience of being a parent or understanding children rock up to lecture women on here. Once you get past the irritation at the tone deaf ignorant lecturing, it's actually funny to see the lack of insight and knowledge.

I couldn't comment. I genuinely can't be arsed to read Butters latest fantasy novel. Butters clearly wants my attention.

I'm not interested in the latest toddler tantrum.

I'm fairly sure I can grasp the gist by this point. I'll play when I'm finding it funny, but otherwise I just can't be arsed with it.

AYoungTransWoman · 28/05/2025 17:24

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:22

To my knowledge (please correct me if I'm wrong), neither @AYoungTransWoman or myself have ever been what society would define as men. We both initiated treatment before reaching adulthood.

You could perhaps argue that we have experience of being boys, were you to completely deny our interiority and reject any notion that our experience of our own transness modulates that experience. It would still be inaccurate, but slightly less so.

Yeah I started my transition whilst I was in school.

Helleofabore · 28/05/2025 17:26

Any male adult human is a man. They experience life as a male person, even if that body has undergone extreme modifications.

Man merely means adult male human.

Datun · 28/05/2025 17:27

Sorry, this got pretty long.

I don't think you are!

I'm rooting for you!

I don't think you are.

Just a hunch.

SinnerBoy · 28/05/2025 17:28

But that was before your life was detonated by an arbitrary court ruling funded by a multi-millionaire and an army of lawyers.

None of that happened. Everyone around you knows perfectly well that you aren't an actual woman, but are polite enough not to make mention of it.

The Supreme Court case was fought by 3 ordinary (perhaps not!) women, who crowd funded it. The other side was the Scottish Government, the side which had unlimited funding and the actual side with an army of lawyers.

Five judges spent an awful lot of time considering and talking to each other about what the wording of the EA actually means, in plain English.

And you can't claim never to have been in a men's toilet, where did you go before you started presenting yourself as a woman?

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:28

NotAtMyAge · 28/05/2025 16:05

The venom in your words when any other trans-identified person ventures to give an opinion which differs from yours is very revealing and what it reveals does you absolutely no credit. Have you no self-awareness at all?

Wait till you see what happens to heretical women who express trans-positive views on this board

Datun · 28/05/2025 17:28

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:22

To my knowledge (please correct me if I'm wrong), neither @AYoungTransWoman or myself have ever been what society would define as men. We both initiated treatment before reaching adulthood.

You could perhaps argue that we have experience of being boys, were you to completely deny our interiority and reject any notion that our experience of our own transness modulates that experience. It would still be inaccurate, but slightly less so.

You're both men now. You have absolutely zero experience of being women. None.

And, I have to say, you don't even try and pretend. There's no part of your narrative that is anything about women.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 28/05/2025 17:29

Seethlaw · 28/05/2025 14:46

I agree, it's a weird sentence 😅What I meant was: "the little girl I was supposed to be mentally because I was a little girl biologically".

It's weird, mind you: when I look at those pics of me as a toddler with long hair, I feel like I'm letting the world down by failing to identify with my sex. I feel like the little girl in the pictures is failing to take a step she should have taken at some point. And what's weird is that I don't feel the same for the girl in pictures taken a couple of years later. It's specifically for the toddler age. Hmm... 🤔

Children are supposed to develop a sense of sex around this age. From two to three years old, they can accurately sex themselves and other people, irrespective of whether they can see their genitals, or have been told what genitals mean.

They don't know until six or seven that you can't change sex. I can remember at that age knowing I was nominally a girl (my school had two separate entrances!) but not knowing that this state of affairs was permanent. Unlike you, though, I didn't care one way or the other. My trans friends say this proves I'm cis 🙄

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:29

SinnerBoy · 28/05/2025 17:28

But that was before your life was detonated by an arbitrary court ruling funded by a multi-millionaire and an army of lawyers.

None of that happened. Everyone around you knows perfectly well that you aren't an actual woman, but are polite enough not to make mention of it.

The Supreme Court case was fought by 3 ordinary (perhaps not!) women, who crowd funded it. The other side was the Scottish Government, the side which had unlimited funding and the actual side with an army of lawyers.

Five judges spent an awful lot of time considering and talking to each other about what the wording of the EA actually means, in plain English.

And you can't claim never to have been in a men's toilet, where did you go before you started presenting yourself as a woman?

I was just a kid who awkwardly and miserably used male toilets if there was no other choice - and hated it.

Datun · 28/05/2025 17:30

I do have a question, though butters. Why have you suddenly gone from warp speed to hyper drive? Have you been asked to use the gents at work? Is that what that fantasy was about?

RedToothBrush · 28/05/2025 17:31

Datun · 28/05/2025 17:27

Sorry, this got pretty long.

I don't think you are!

I'm rooting for you!

I don't think you are.

Just a hunch.

Edited

Butters just gets passive aggressive when I talk about my brother. To prove a point. Butters manages to only serve to prove my own. It's amusing. I don't need to read to know what it says.

It's all there for everyone to see.

Seethlaw · 28/05/2025 17:32

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:22

To my knowledge (please correct me if I'm wrong), neither @AYoungTransWoman or myself have ever been what society would define as men. We both initiated treatment before reaching adulthood.

You could perhaps argue that we have experience of being boys, were you to completely deny our interiority and reject any notion that our experience of our own transness modulates that experience. It would still be inaccurate, but slightly less so.

Absolutely. You were boys, like I was a girl. That's a simple, obvious fact. You were never girls, and I was never a boy. I have no idea what it's like to be a boy, just like you have no idea what it's like to be girl, because we never lived it. That's completely accurate.

Datun · 28/05/2025 17:33

RedToothBrush · 28/05/2025 17:31

Butters just gets passive aggressive when I talk about my brother. To prove a point. Butters manages to only serve to prove my own. It's amusing. I don't need to read to know what it says.

It's all there for everyone to see.

Oh I didn't read it either. Just the word sorry stood out.

Yes, everyone can see what is being said about you and your brother. He's not exactly trying to hide it.

Helleofabore · 28/05/2025 17:37

Would our two male posters who have declared that they know about female breasts like to to tell us all how male 'breast tissue' becomes the interactive system that is behind the breast and endocrine system of a female person?

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:39

Datun · 28/05/2025 17:28

You're both men now. You have absolutely zero experience of being women. None.

And, I have to say, you don't even try and pretend. There's no part of your narrative that is anything about women.

Pretend what?

Why would I pretend anything? What would I be pretending?

I'm just me. I stopped pretending to be a boy once I realised I didn't have to anymore. I got incredibly lucky!

You seem to think being myself is some kind of performance - that we're asking you for a Womanhood Provisional License? I don't know about you @AYoungTransWoman but I sacked all that nonsense off decades ago.

You seem to want to think I try and affect some kind of stereotypical 'womanliness' caricature?

Bizarre. I think you should meet more normal trans people rather than treating online Weirdness Factories as representative

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:40

Seethlaw · 28/05/2025 17:32

Absolutely. You were boys, like I was a girl. That's a simple, obvious fact. You were never girls, and I was never a boy. I have no idea what it's like to be a boy, just like you have no idea what it's like to be girl, because we never lived it. That's completely accurate.

Did you transition in your teens, out of interest? Or once you reached adulthood?

Seethlaw · 28/05/2025 17:43

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:40

Did you transition in your teens, out of interest? Or once you reached adulthood?

I knew when I was a kid and transitioned as an adult. Not that it has any relevance to the fact that I was never a boy and you were never a girl.

Datun · 28/05/2025 17:44

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:39

Pretend what?

Why would I pretend anything? What would I be pretending?

I'm just me. I stopped pretending to be a boy once I realised I didn't have to anymore. I got incredibly lucky!

You seem to think being myself is some kind of performance - that we're asking you for a Womanhood Provisional License? I don't know about you @AYoungTransWoman but I sacked all that nonsense off decades ago.

You seem to want to think I try and affect some kind of stereotypical 'womanliness' caricature?

Bizarre. I think you should meet more normal trans people rather than treating online Weirdness Factories as representative

No 🙄

Pretend to understand them, care about feminism, root for women, know what it means for women.

To have any affinity for, or understanding of, the sex you so much want to be.

It's pretty predictable that you think I mean stereotypes, though.

I have to say, and I mean this in the most instructive way possible, you're absolutely clueless about womanhood.

And you must know that. You must know that what you are aspiring to is a man who doesn't want to inhabit what he believes are male stereotypes.

TangenitalContrivences · 28/05/2025 17:45

@ButterflyHatched

Sex is not a costume
You describe parents who “destroy” relationships if they don’t affirm a son as a daughter. Flip that round: why should a mother be forced to say her son is a girl when every cell in his body says otherwise? Biological sex is concrete, observable and lifelong. It isn’t bigotry to notice it; it’s ordinary perception. An ideology that demands we pretend otherwise is building on sand, and sooner or later the tide comes in.

“Affirm or else” is not love
Real love sometimes says “No.” When a teenager wants a tattoo, a good parent asks awkward questions about permanence and regret. The same caution should apply when a teenager wants surgery or puberty blockers. Calling that concern “transphobia” shuts down exactly the difficult conversations that safeguard both children and parents.

Disagreement is not hatred
You paint a stark picture: either one applauds the ideology or one is a bully. That’s unfair. Plenty of us can treat trans-identified people with everyday decency while still believing that sex cannot change and that policy should reflect that fact. If the only tolerated view is unqualified affirmation, then the movement is demanding conformity, not dialogue.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 28/05/2025 17:46

Interesting point about missing heir syndrome. I'd forgotten about that one.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 28/05/2025 17:47

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:11

This is really quite saddening to read, and shows a repeating pattern.

You seem to be saying:

  1. You don't talk to your own mother anymore because you refused to accept your sister and this drove them both away. This is heartbreaking.
  2. That you believe your mother isn't capable of 'really' seeing her daughter as female. This may well be true.
  3. That it is important for mothers to deny children when they express gender dysphoria and refuse to accept their transness if it persists. (Imagine saying the same about same-sex attraction 30 years ago under Section 28 - it's eerily familiar rhetoric).
  4. That there is a trans woman in your life who you haven't yet alienated enough to drive away forever, and who appears to agree with you when the two of you are together.

Ok.

My experiences of my own friends and family are very different, but everyone's family is different I suppose. Maybe your mother really can't see your sister as female - she is clearly just trying her best to accept her child anyway, though, and I can respect that.

I know that you are going to labour the point you and other posters keep trying to make that I and other trans people are only being humoured by the people in our lives (I think there are actually some good points to be made about how many people struggle with latent transphobia and are desperately trying to wokewash their own behaviour, in much the same way that homophobes had to learn to treat the LGB people in their lives like human beings a decade or two ago after it stopped being socially acceptable to voice publicly. Hell, even trans people today aren't magically immune to transphobic attitudes!)

The thing is, you seem to not be considering that this same principle also applies to you - people in your life will humour your anti-trans views in person an extent because they don't want to turn every conversation into a battleground and want to keep their family and friendship groups together if possible.

Your complete refusal to accept your sister seems to have finally broken your family apart when they couldn't humour you and the harm your ideology was causing any longer.

That's heartbreaking - and a very common dynamic amongst many families I have spoken to who have also been torn apart by gender critical ideology. There comes a point where it just can't be stepped over like a missing stair anymore - where you just can't in good conscience keep inviting dear Sister or Auntie or Granny over, due to the harm it causes to the kids. Heartbreaking, but you eventually have to make the difficult call.

It also seems like something that would be so easy to repair as well, let alone to have avoided to begin with.

I asked my own mother what it would feel like to have one child begging for acceptance and another refusing to accept her for who she is and she said it would tear her apart and destroy her utterly. She would be incandescent over feeling like she was being forced to choose, and would find herself wondering if that lack of acceptance would extend to other facets of a family member's life rather than just the parts it is currently socially permissible to hold negative philosophical views toward.

I can unfortunately imagine precisely what hearing this stuff constantly must be like for your Transfriend (friend? Maybe she's just a Transacquaintance?). Hopefully she has robust filters in place and a solid support network - I know I find it exhausting to engage in person with people who are doing the conversational equivalent of kicking me in the teeth periodically, even more so than online. That said, she might find it tolerable if she isn't particularly dysphoric or has managed to frame being misgendered during your meetings as a sort of necessary evil.

You've clearly found a community here who accepts your ideological rejection of your sister, and (before that?) you found a place in the Dr Who fandom, but you seem to have said before that there is a great deal of tension there - which makes sense!

Dr Who is one of the most relentlessly inclusive and trans-positive shows on TV and has been for years. It makes me wonder how much of an influence you have in the Who fandom - and whether it has diminished over the last decade or so due to your behaviour. I could see a situation where a prominent fandom figure liberally throwing GC talking points about in a space populated by many trans people would actually encourage the community to close ranks, and if it got especially bad and impossible to ignore, it could encourage the show writers to write more trans-accepting stories and thus make it starkly clear where they stand. It would be hard to remain prominent or relevant in that community afterward!

You don't come across as someone who actually likes the Who fandom or even the show very much to begin with, honestly. You may find it less frustrating to disengage rather than continuing to hate-watch.

That said, you seem to talk about it in the past tense quite a bit, so you may already view it as something in your past.

This is an attitude I've seen in geek circles a great deal in recent years - holdouts who come together to lament how the IP they grew up with 'went woke' when they suddenly started noticing it conflicting with their own ideological standpoints. You end up with these little island universes that refuse to accept anything beyond a particular cutoff date in canon. It's particularly odd when said IP has always, transparently, been 'woke' within the climate of the times within which it was written. Star Wars is particularly egregious for it - the amount of screaming rage that has accompanied the release of the most recent series of Andor has been a sight to behold, and similarly for The Boys once a subset of fans finally realised that Homelander isn't supposed to be viewed as heroic.

If you have disengaged from the Who fandom, Bravo on moving on! If you are looking for TV shows that display appropriately virulent anti-trans attitudes then there is no shortage of classics from before the Great Awokening.

Old Who itself, of course, has a particular low budget earnest shaky cardboard-and-tinfoil charm as well - and barely ever resorted to getting mean or punching downward. Even the shaky early attempts at depicting trans characters were pretty interesting if a little tonally odd. I can't recall a single instance of overt mean-spirited transphobia and I've watched most of it at some point. It simply has never had a single malicious bone in its body, so no wonder most of the modern fandom - bar the holdouts - have no issue with trans people.

I think that the way you launched a jeering pile-on against me yesterday is an indication that you perhaps aren't someone for whom kindness or tolerance comes easily, even if your self-image says otherwise. You've certainly done a lot of sneering at me, and it has felt like a rather desperate point-scoring exercise that went on and on for several pages. I used to get plenty of that kind of thing from girls and boys at school, as a trans kid trying to catch up on missed social cues, so it's almost nostalgic in a way.

If you behaved like that to your sister, I'm not surprised that your family no longer talks to you - and wouldn't be surprised if you have lost your voice in the Who fandom as well if you've engaged in this kind of behaviour there. Many people - especially in geek circles - don't enjoy those who engage in behaviours that look awfully like bullying, and generally only play along out of fear or a desire to engage in ingroup signalling performances. There are plenty of well known geek social fallacies where people tolerate bullies due to the residual siege mentality and wish to be inclusive - but there are times when it just becomes too much.

You'd probably have more success with both your family, and the wider Who fandom (Whodom?) if you eased off on the anti-trans stuff. That really seems to be at the core of everything you have described as a source of conflict in your life.

I suppose this board's community will never challenge you for expressing gender critical or otherwise trans-hostile views - indeed, you'd be treated like other posters who haven't toed the line if you didn't - and is more than willing to support you, so you have everything you need here!

I think there's a Reddit board that dedicates itself to a virulently 'anti-woke' trans-hostile interpretation of old-left political thought. Same kind of gig as Spiked and its hybrid 'conservative leftism' holdout ideology. Can't remember its name and don't really care to expose myself to it again unnecessarily but you might find it to your liking. There seems to be a lot of lamenting the existence of trans characters in modern media. Obviously as with anything that markets itself as 'anti-woke', buyer beware.

I'm wryly glad you found yesterday's juvenile multi-page pile-on an entertaining opportunity to hold court and grandstand. It's certainly given me a lot to think about and reminisce on. I thought it was quite illuminating - as did quite a few observers who were vainly hoping that following the SC ruling, things would ease off and the board might become a little less overtly hostile to trans people.

My general policy for social media laugh-react storms is that the harder and more sweatily a dogpile labours a point about how loudly they are guffawing and how jolly a time they are having with their collective mockery of a single person for an innocent mistake or even just a statement they dislike, the more desperate they are to find straws to clutch to undermine said person. There is a characteristic desperation that almost looks like relief. It's fascinating to observe, and almost like clockwork. It seems like a perfect fit for a strategic policy of portraying trans people as inherently laughable, ridiculous and worthy of scorn and derision, should that align with your goals.

I don't think it will win you many friends amongst people interested in treating trans people with dignity and respect, but perhaps that isn't a priority for you.

Sorry, this got pretty long. Your disclosure of your family situation really upset me and I suppose I'm just trying to understand what leads a person to that point, and how that would affect the way they engage with the world.

I really hope you find a way ahead that allows you to reconcile with your family! The world would be a better place if more people were able to find a way to reconcile with and accept their parents and siblings.

I'm rooting for you!

Thank you. This is such an enlightening post.

One the one hand we have Red, who knows the story of her own life.

On the other we have Butts, who begs to differ - she might think she knows of the story of her own life but it his he, with his mighty insight, who can perceive the real story behind the surface, one that - and the skies shake in shock - just so happens to back up exactly the way he needs the world to work to validate his own desires. Just as he can with womanhood, and feminism, and oooh, just about anything women might disagree with him about really that stops him having a carte blanche justification to utilise women and women's lives and women's resources as theraputic aids.

And you know the worst thing? I'm pretty sure he genuinely believes his version of reality and his version of what women really care about and don't care about if only we were clever enough to realise it.

I am reminded of Vorbis, and the mind like a steel ball where nothing got in and nothing got out, just the echoes of his own obsessions boucing round round and round.

DialSquare · 28/05/2025 17:47

Transwomen will never convince the majority of people that they are women. And the way they have to keep on insisting they are women, they will never really convince themselves either. No matter what they say.

TangenitalContrivences · 28/05/2025 17:48

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:39

Pretend what?

Why would I pretend anything? What would I be pretending?

I'm just me. I stopped pretending to be a boy once I realised I didn't have to anymore. I got incredibly lucky!

You seem to think being myself is some kind of performance - that we're asking you for a Womanhood Provisional License? I don't know about you @AYoungTransWoman but I sacked all that nonsense off decades ago.

You seem to want to think I try and affect some kind of stereotypical 'womanliness' caricature?

Bizarre. I think you should meet more normal trans people rather than treating online Weirdness Factories as representative

You are literally pretending to be a woman, by donning sex stereotypes.

You are male. 100% so. You will go bald, probably get prostate cancer. You have a 10% chance of being colour blind. You have never and can never change that. Popping on a dress and some lippy is not being a woman.

Or tell us - how else do you do trans woman exactly? What is different from how you would be if you took the male path and did not transition?

Datun · 28/05/2025 17:48

Datun · 28/05/2025 17:44

No 🙄

Pretend to understand them, care about feminism, root for women, know what it means for women.

To have any affinity for, or understanding of, the sex you so much want to be.

It's pretty predictable that you think I mean stereotypes, though.

I have to say, and I mean this in the most instructive way possible, you're absolutely clueless about womanhood.

And you must know that. You must know that what you are aspiring to is a man who doesn't want to inhabit what he believes are male stereotypes.

I'm quoting myself, because hand on heart, I know many men who do inhabit male stereotypes, who are way more attuned to women than you are butters.

It's almost like the very act of a man deciding he's a woman, precludes him from ever understanding what a woman is.

I'd add an 'obviously' there, but I really don't think it is obvious to you.

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