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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The words that have been pulled over your eyes

491 replies

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/05/2025 21:00

I initially wrote this as a reply to a thread in relationships, but rather than derail the thread I decided to post it in FWR as a thread in its own right about a common accusation made against gender critical feminists.

It is a response to the claim that the only people who object to the word "cis" are people who deny the existence of trans women, and that such people are transphobes.

"Transphobe", like "trans woman" and indeed "cis woman", are just the words trans activists use to hide what is really going on.

These words exist to hide one simple truth: Trans women are not, in any objective, real way, in any way outside their own heads, in any way that is real to anyone else, any closer to being a woman than any other man is.

"Trans women" in reality are just men who for some reason feel compelled (or sometimes just really want ) to adopt a cross-sex persona playing out whatever their idea of what a woman is.

The words exist to make it sound like a reasonable thing when such men demand that their wives, children, friends and family, colleagues, officials, all of society pretend they are women, let them enter private spaces for women, let them touch or counsel women in roles reserved for women, let them take prizes for women, let them speak for women.

Because we'd never accept that as ok from men. But it's ok for trans women, and if it's not ok that's transphobia.

And we'd never say women in general are more privileged and powerful than men, but call the men trans women and the women cis women and suddenly everyone nods along. And if they don't it's transphobia.

But I don't believe the thing that makes men and women different is our minds. And without that belief, the whole thing falls apart.

OP posts:
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NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:02

Seethlaw · 25/05/2025 21:56

@NoKnittingAllowed

You keep talking about the average men and the danger they represent. How do you distinguish between these average men and trans women?

Much like yourself presenting as a trans male the majority of trans women will present as trans women therefore I can see the difference between a trans woman and an average man

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:03

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 21:52

But they're not getting access to our spaces so that's sorted. I don't know about you but I've had far more bother, aggression, unwanted sexual attention and forced attention etc etc from the average man many times in my life yet none of that from a trans woman. So it seems very unbalanced to continually go on and on about trans women and trans people in general.

But many of them have stated clearly that they are continuing to access female single sex provisions. And taken video to prove they are there in female toilets. Plus there are still male prisoners in female prisons.

And some sports have declared that they are not excluding male people. I am really not sure what the fuck you have been reading if you have this belief that all of a sudden male people with transgender identities are no longer accessing single sex spaces.

By the way, what exactly what is the difference between ‘the average man’ and one who states they have a transgender identity?

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:04

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:02

Much like yourself presenting as a trans male the majority of trans women will present as trans women therefore I can see the difference between a trans woman and an average man

How exactly?

GailBlancheViola · 25/05/2025 22:06

CuppaJoe · 25/05/2025 21:25

And yet people like you are always the ones to bring up genitalia in the first place.

TRAs have an unhealthy obsession with genitalia and a disturbing fascination for genital checks, I won't speculate why.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/05/2025 22:08

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:04

How exactly?

Frocks innit?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/05/2025 22:08

GailBlancheViola · 25/05/2025 22:06

TRAs have an unhealthy obsession with genitalia and a disturbing fascination for genital checks, I won't speculate why.

Too much Viz I reckon

OP posts:
Seethlaw · 25/05/2025 22:08

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:02

Much like yourself presenting as a trans male the majority of trans women will present as trans women therefore I can see the difference between a trans woman and an average man

My bad, I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't talking in terms of presenting; I was talking in terms of potential danger. How do you distinguish between the danger presented by a random average man, and the danger presented by a random trans woman?

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:17

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/05/2025 22:08

Frocks innit?

I reckon it is gender feels too Bernard. Because I suspect we are to be told that these are special non-male male people. The special male people who have morphed out of being male in some people’s minds while material reality has shown they are still male people, except they have a philosophical belief that defies material reality and logic. They believe they are female people while being a male person with their male personhood coded in to every cell of their body.

But obviously, they are somehow different to the ‘average man’ we are being lectured to keep focus on. I look forward to seeing the details, supported by evidence of course, that sets them apart.

I suspect it will be Turtles all the way down or crickets.

Kettledodger · 25/05/2025 22:20

StMarie4me · 25/05/2025 21:14

I cannot fathom someone putting so much energy into any of this if they are not trans.
It bothers me how bothered some of you are about other people’s genitalia.
I cannot imagine spending so much of my time thinking about this.
Creepy AF.

You obviously have never experienced or had anyone close to you experience VAWG. Genitalia has little to do with it but it is a very much a power issue, and very much about male power over female. Just because they put on a dress does not stop them from doing the power play.

myplace · 25/05/2025 22:20

The cohort we are discussing is the one actively working to dismantle safeguarding and to access women at their most vulnerable- for all their faults, the average man isn’t doing that.

myplace · 25/05/2025 22:21

And if we’re talking about creepy, frankly the chaps who claim they are women win hands down.

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:22

Seethlaw · 25/05/2025 22:08

My bad, I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't talking in terms of presenting; I was talking in terms of potential danger. How do you distinguish between the danger presented by a random average man, and the danger presented by a random trans woman?

I said that during my life I have had many instances of bad behaviour, sexual assault, perving, aggressive men etc etc but not once have I had that from a trans woman and I wondered why such emphasis is being put on trans women as I find it hard to believe that women in general have suffered all this behaviour from trans women. I'm not saying never as there are some well known cases but in day to day life it's ordinary men.
We've already got the SC ruling so anyone trying to subvert that will find themselves in trouble. I don't see the need now to continually blame trans women.

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:24

Shall we post all the interviews and social media posts of all the male people who have declared that they will defy the law and continue to use the female single sex spaces? I reckon we could post hundreds within minutes.

Including retired judges, barristers, ex new presenters, CEOs of different lobby groups, ex prisoners and the list goes on and on.

But hey wims…. It is all over. Nothing to see here. All those male people are just pulling our legs and will obey the law. Nothing to see here.

mrshoho · 25/05/2025 22:24

StMarie4me · 25/05/2025 21:14

I cannot fathom someone putting so much energy into any of this if they are not trans.
It bothers me how bothered some of you are about other people’s genitalia.
I cannot imagine spending so much of my time thinking about this.
Creepy AF.

What's creepy AF is people foisting unwanted and unnecessary labels onto women and expecting us to shut up and accept it. CIS is the most pathetic term and anyone using it reveals their stupidity.

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:24

myplace · 25/05/2025 22:21

And if we’re talking about creepy, frankly the chaps who claim they are women win hands down.

What about the women who claim they're men? Are they creepy?

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:26

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:24

Shall we post all the interviews and social media posts of all the male people who have declared that they will defy the law and continue to use the female single sex spaces? I reckon we could post hundreds within minutes.

Including retired judges, barristers, ex new presenters, CEOs of different lobby groups, ex prisoners and the list goes on and on.

But hey wims…. It is all over. Nothing to see here. All those male people are just pulling our legs and will obey the law. Nothing to see here.

They may say that but they actually can't. They will soon find themselves taken to court

Leafstamp · 25/05/2025 22:27

Britinme · 25/05/2025 21:38

Imagination.

Ah, sorry, I tagged the wrong person!

was supposed to be @StMarie4me

@StMarie4me can you explain what makes someone trans or not trans?

Seethlaw · 25/05/2025 22:29

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:22

I said that during my life I have had many instances of bad behaviour, sexual assault, perving, aggressive men etc etc but not once have I had that from a trans woman and I wondered why such emphasis is being put on trans women as I find it hard to believe that women in general have suffered all this behaviour from trans women. I'm not saying never as there are some well known cases but in day to day life it's ordinary men.
We've already got the SC ruling so anyone trying to subvert that will find themselves in trouble. I don't see the need now to continually blame trans women.

"I find it hard to believe that women in general have suffered all this behaviour from trans women."

Trans women are statistically at least as dangerous to women as ordinary men. So no, in day to day life, it's not just ordinary men: it's trans women just as much.

Trust me, I'm not happy with those statistics, because I don't want to associate the trans women I know with such things.

But then again, I don't want to associate the ordinary men I know with their statistics either. Still have to, though.

OakleyAnnie · 25/05/2025 22:30

StMarie4me · 25/05/2025 21:14

I cannot fathom someone putting so much energy into any of this if they are not trans.
It bothers me how bothered some of you are about other people’s genitalia.
I cannot imagine spending so much of my time thinking about this.
Creepy AF.

Spectacularly missing the point!

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:31

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:26

They may say that but they actually can't. They will soon find themselves taken to court

And in the meantime, we should just ignore the fact they are in our spaces? And just hope for the best?

Did you also miss the part where there are still male prisoners in female prisons? Or do those women not matter?

And still sports allowing male people into female sports? Do those women not matter either?

And just because you have no personal negative experience of male people with transgender identities, doesn’t mean others on this thread don’t have direct negative experience. Such as me. Am I allowed to discuss my need for those male people to be out of the spaces I need to be female only? Is it ok if I discuss it? Do I have your permission?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/05/2025 22:31

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:22

I said that during my life I have had many instances of bad behaviour, sexual assault, perving, aggressive men etc etc but not once have I had that from a trans woman and I wondered why such emphasis is being put on trans women as I find it hard to believe that women in general have suffered all this behaviour from trans women. I'm not saying never as there are some well known cases but in day to day life it's ordinary men.
We've already got the SC ruling so anyone trying to subvert that will find themselves in trouble. I don't see the need now to continually blame trans women.

I’ve experienced instances of bad behaviour from men and trans women (also men). And?

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:32

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:26

They may say that but they actually can't. They will soon find themselves taken to court

Taken to court? Who will take each of them to court?

Dominoodles · 25/05/2025 22:32

StMarie4me · 25/05/2025 21:14

I cannot fathom someone putting so much energy into any of this if they are not trans.
It bothers me how bothered some of you are about other people’s genitalia.
I cannot imagine spending so much of my time thinking about this.
Creepy AF.

If you do not understand any of it, even if you disagree, then you are not listening.

Seethlaw · 25/05/2025 22:32

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:24

What about the women who claim they're men? Are they creepy?

Apparently, a lot of gay men find those of us who want to date them creepy, yes. Makes sense.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/05/2025 22:33

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:22

I said that during my life I have had many instances of bad behaviour, sexual assault, perving, aggressive men etc etc but not once have I had that from a trans woman and I wondered why such emphasis is being put on trans women as I find it hard to believe that women in general have suffered all this behaviour from trans women. I'm not saying never as there are some well known cases but in day to day life it's ordinary men.
We've already got the SC ruling so anyone trying to subvert that will find themselves in trouble. I don't see the need now to continually blame trans women.

Your complaisance is ill informed

according to the times yesterday there are 4 male murderers currently in women’s prisons in Scotland (https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff1e8e4e-09ab-4d28-a464-c448264cab88?shareToken=ea4c7fd13edf47f4a61f22ac55fdcd05)

men in women’s spaces is still very much A Thing

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