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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lineker 'Trans people are some of the most persecuted people on the planet'

174 replies

IDareSay · 15/05/2025 12:25

Just stick to bloody football Gary.

Oliver Brown in The Telegraph:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2025/05/15/gary-lineker-interview-gaza-transgender-america-bbc-motd/

“One other area where Lineker has been noticeably silent is a subject where centrist-dad equivocations are difficult: men masquerading in sport as women. This has been front-page news in his own realm, with the Football Association forced this month to ban males from all levels of the female game, honouring the Supreme Court’s ruling that the definition of a woman was based on biological sex. And yet Lineker has consistently swerved it. When his podcast, The Rest Is Football, tried a public question-and-answer experiment last November, Martina Navratilova, Sharron Davies and hundreds of other women asked him what he thought of the FA banning a teenager – revealed by The Telegraph last weekend as Cerys Vaughan – for asking a transgender opponent: “Are you a man?” Even under pressure from a nine-time Wimbledon singles champion and a celebrated Olympic swimmer, he neglected to engage. Why?
“Ugh,” he sighs, slumping so far forward in his chair he nearly hits the table. “You can’t cover that subject properly in a post. It’s too nuanced. I don’t actually think, in terms of sport, that it will ever be a real issue. Sport, as it’s already doing, will sort it out and work out rules. Like they did in boxing, when they realised they couldn’t have heavyweights against little fellas.”
Is it not blindingly obvious, however, that sport will not simply “sort it out”? It has taken many determined female campaigners a punishingly long time to undo the damage of gender ideology, compelling sports to prioritise fairness for women rather than vacuous mantras about inclusion. Amid broad acceptance that the rights of half the population should trump the view of a small, vocal minority of men that they are entitled to colonise women’s sport, Lineker makes it clear where his sympathies lie. “They’re some of the most persecuted on the planet, trans people. You’ve got to be very careful not to have bigoted views on that. I genuinely feel really badly for trans people. Imagine going through what they have to go through in life. Is there even any issue? It’s the same swimmer, the same weightlifter, the same boxer. They’re the only people I ever see.”

Lineker’s perspective here is myopic. The three examples he raises – American swimmer Lia Thomas, New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard, and Algerian boxer Imane Khelif, not transgender but permitted to win gold as a woman at the Paris Olympics despite sex tests indicating the presence of male chromosomes – are indeed well-publicised. But they are far from the only ones he could cite, with a recent report by Reem Alsalem, the United Nations special rapporteur on violence against women and girls, documenting how governing bodies’ failures to act had led to more than 600 female athletes around the world losing 890 medals in 29 different sports.
In his eyes, only cases at elite level matter. “We’ve got the Women’s Euros in the summer. Let’s see if there’s one issue – I don’t think there is. Are you telling me that there are many people who pretend to be women just so they’re going to be good at sport?” The desire of some males to receive affirmation as female can be a powerful motivating force, I argue. “It’s so complex,” Lineker says. “I see both sides to a degree.””

OP posts:
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7
Goody2ShoesAndTheFilthyBeast · 19/05/2025 09:16

He's taking the piss!

A tiny tiny minority of people are holding half the world hostage and demonising anyone who won't prioritise them at all times.

That's hardly persecuted!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/05/2025 09:25

GorillaJoe · 19/05/2025 09:13

In the right-thinking world, Lineker shouldn't have been sacked because all he was doing was exercising his free speech

I am not clear what you mean by ' Right thinkers' but regardless, there is a well established principle that the right to free speech ends when it incites racial hatred. Dehumanising Jews ( or any group of people) by comparing them to rats very clearly falls into this camp. I am a huge free speech advocate and a member of the Free Speech Union but I absolutely agree the line is drawn at such clear incitement of racial hatred as calling groups of people ' rats.'

And the ' Oh I didn't know Nazis called Jews rats' argument is bollocks too. You don't need to know that to realise that calling a ethnic group of people 'rats' is inciting racial hatred against them.

I think he’s maybe just so used to seeing anti Israel propaganda and being able to spout his dull opinions to the world that he missed that the sources he was using had crossed into overt antisemitism.

ArabellaScott · 19/05/2025 09:26

GorillaJoe · 19/05/2025 09:13

In the right-thinking world, Lineker shouldn't have been sacked because all he was doing was exercising his free speech

I am not clear what you mean by ' Right thinkers' but regardless, there is a well established principle that the right to free speech ends when it incites racial hatred. Dehumanising Jews ( or any group of people) by comparing them to rats very clearly falls into this camp. I am a huge free speech advocate and a member of the Free Speech Union but I absolutely agree the line is drawn at such clear incitement of racial hatred as calling groups of people ' rats.'

And the ' Oh I didn't know Nazis called Jews rats' argument is bollocks too. You don't need to know that to realise that calling a ethnic group of people 'rats' is inciting racial hatred against them.

nauticant was describing those who class themselves as 'right-thinkers'.

The phrase itself is interesting, as it expresses a stance closer to religious faith than actual critical thinking, despite ostensibly referring to 'thinking'.

ArabellaScott · 19/05/2025 09:32

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/05/2025 09:25

I think he’s maybe just so used to seeing anti Israel propaganda and being able to spout his dull opinions to the world that he missed that the sources he was using had crossed into overt antisemitism.

Yes. I reckon it's quite possible he missed the rat image. Its quite easy to skip over a collection of emoticons - they are after all vapid little cartoons of ignorable rubbish.

The trouble is more that he has fallen for rhetoric that is fundamentally based on dehumanisation and defamation of a race.

nauticant · 19/05/2025 09:37

I also think he didn't bother looking with a critical eye at what he was recommending in his rush to be righteous.

What I find interesting is that if I make a massive blunder like that, I would learn the lesson, zip shut my trap, and if I returned to telling the public want to think I'd be far more careful and humble than before. It'll be interesting to see whether we get a humble Lineker.

ElBandito · 19/05/2025 09:43

You don't have to be careful not to be bigoted, you have to be careful to be correct.
I think we've seen elsewhere that being careful not to be bigoted rather than being careful to be correct can lead to a whole world of trouble, usually for women and girls.

GorillaJoe · 19/05/2025 12:42

ArabellaScott · 19/05/2025 09:26

nauticant was describing those who class themselves as 'right-thinkers'.

The phrase itself is interesting, as it expresses a stance closer to religious faith than actual critical thinking, despite ostensibly referring to 'thinking'.

I still don't know from that what ' right thinkers' means.

GorillaJoe · 19/05/2025 12:45

ArabellaScott · 19/05/2025 09:32

Yes. I reckon it's quite possible he missed the rat image. Its quite easy to skip over a collection of emoticons - they are after all vapid little cartoons of ignorable rubbish.

The trouble is more that he has fallen for rhetoric that is fundamentally based on dehumanisation and defamation of a race.

The trouble is more that he has fallen for rhetoric that is fundamentally based on dehumanisation and defamation of a race

Yes.

Though on the original tweet, the rat image is large and prominent - its not a little emoticon at the bottom of the tweet or anything. Its large and positioned right alongside the ' Zionism explained in 2 minutes' heading. Its a cartoon image rather than an emoticon.

Koalafan · 19/05/2025 12:55

Good footballer.
Good commentator.
Questionable opinions on pretty much everything else.

MarieDeGournay · 19/05/2025 13:19

ElBandito · 19/05/2025 09:43

You don't have to be careful not to be bigoted, you have to be careful to be correct.
I think we've seen elsewhere that being careful not to be bigoted rather than being careful to be correct can lead to a whole world of trouble, usually for women and girls.

This isn't saying exactly the same thing, ElBandito, but your post reminded me of

'Everybody is circumspect about confessing; whereas they should be circumspect about doing'.' [Montaigne]

It's what you say and do, not whether or not you get caught saying or doing it, which should be the guiding principle.

Putting things out on social media where millions of people will see them should be an added impetus to get things right - as in factually right, not morally right - but paradoxically it seems that people post, tweet, re-tweet without applying any critical thought at all, and say stupid things they might think twice about saying face-to-face.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 19/05/2025 13:23

I think we shouldn’t be bigoted, and plenty here are. You can agree with the Supreme Court without being pitiless about trans people.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/05/2025 13:28

You can also think men are women without calling for violence against women who aren’t convinced by your ideology @marmaladeandpeanutbutter unlike many trans rights activists and their friends.

nauticant · 19/05/2025 13:29

I think anyone posting Der Stürmer-influenced material to a huge number of followers should face censure, whatever they might think of the Supreme Court judgment.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/05/2025 13:30

Quite, @nauticant

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 19/05/2025 14:11

@Ereshkigalangcleg I wonder what statistics there are to back that up? I know there’s a coterie of militant activists with unthinking views, but I wonder how many?

EdithStourton · 19/05/2025 15:28

MarieDeGournay · 18/05/2025 22:37

BREAKING NEWS SUNDAY PM
GARY LINEKER HAS BEEN MARGINALISED!

He's leaving the BBC, like, now-ish😃

Oh dear.
How sad.
Never mind.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/05/2025 15:38

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 19/05/2025 14:11

@Ereshkigalangcleg I wonder what statistics there are to back that up? I know there’s a coterie of militant activists with unthinking views, but I wonder how many?

Certainly seems like quite a few to me in the years I’ve been talking about this online. I’ve had men fantasise both about my rape and my death, as have many GC women.

Womanofcustard · 19/05/2025 15:38

Oh the irony, being ousted because he retweeted a post ‘like something out of 1930s era Germany’!

EdithStourton · 19/05/2025 15:49

As @GorillaJoe said And the ' Oh I didn't know Nazis called Jews rats' argument is bollocks too. You don't need to know that to realise that calling a ethnic group of people 'rats' is inciting racial hatred against them.

You'd also hope that someone who sounds off regularly about Israel would have some awareness of Jewish history, but no. If he doesn't know about the output of Der Sturmer, he's highly unlikely to be aware of events like the Farhud. But then, he has always struck me as totally clueless. Unfortunately he has influence.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 19/05/2025 15:52

MookieCat · 15/05/2025 12:29

'It's just not a real issue' . No Gary... it's not an issue for you because you don't give a shit about women or women's sports or see women as equal.

At least the Telegraph showed him for what he is. A misogynistic arrogant little man. Who somehow gets paid millions by our national broadcaster.

I couldn’t agree more, @MookieCat.

It is so easy for a successful, middle aged white sportsman to curry favour by spouting this misogynistic shite - he will never lose a title, award or his safety, privacy and dignity to another male who wants to pretend they are a woman.

aspidernamedfluffy · 19/05/2025 16:22

Maybe Lineker could use some of his wealth to set up a TW League. That way everybody's happy as the TW will be playing along side each other and as (according to them), TWAW then they are playing against "women" on a "women's" team. It would be interesting to hear them argue against that.

TheOtherRaven · 19/05/2025 17:45

Unfortunately the only way I can see that working would be if they were permitted to use women as the ball.

nauticant · 20/05/2025 11:04

On the Today programme earlier Alastair Campbell was on to defend Gary Lineker. (The have business interests in common.)

After coming out with all the guff about why it was right for Lineker to express his views, Nick Robinson asked Campbell if he'd support Lineker if he was using the platform provided by the BBC to support Nigel Farage. The interview was running out of time by that point so all we got was a "no" from Campbell.

ThatCyanCat · 20/05/2025 11:11

I think he tries to do the "nice guy" thing but he isn't clever, personable or in fact nice enough to get away with it because it's not who he is. Hence thinking it's got to be fine to share an anti Zionist post without being clever or nice enough to think to check that it isn't actually a raging antisemitic one. He doesn't think that far; he just thinks "Gaza good, this will make me popular" and doesn't have any idea that, even if you want to show genuine support for Gaza, there are some things you need to look out for.

I don't think he even has any real conviction about TW in sports, he just thinks he was pushed to say something and could no longer ignore it, and this was the most marketable thing. He doesn't have any convictions, he is just a chameleon who doesn't even know what colour the surroundings are.

EsmeQuibbles · 20/05/2025 11:46

Does anyone remember Chloe Kelly celebrating England's Euro win by taking off her shirt and running round the pitch in a substantial sports bra and shorts?

The @Lionesses have only gone and done it, and Kelly is England’s heroine, bra none.

A great win, but his tweet was fixated on her tits.