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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
ThatCyanCat · 17/05/2025 08:43

Well, who knew that men use their spaces to hit on highly polished dudes in dresses. I wonder at what point they make their move. Just as he's stood to the urinal with his knob out? Hard to take off quickly by that point, I guess.

Sounds a bit shit to me. I prefer our spaces with all the pillow fights, foam wrestling and tampon dominoes. No wonder our queues are longer.

PonyPatter44 · 17/05/2025 08:46

I asked Mr Pony about the risk of him running off with a TW he met in the gents, and he said something along the lines of , "have to see how it goes" with a shrug. I'm not too worried.

ArabellaScott · 17/05/2025 08:49

Alucard55 · 17/05/2025 08:20

Trans woman, trans woman, trans woman, trans woman, please don't take my man from me.

You could have your choice of men, the lavatorial siren

BetterWithPockets · 17/05/2025 08:51

HardyCrow · 17/05/2025 07:48

So you’re upset about what exactly? Seems to me you’re just pissed off that women can have their spaces back.

Where have I said I’m upset?

Not sure what you’re basing your assumption on, but you’re wrong. HTH.

ThatCyanCat · 17/05/2025 08:55

ArabellaScott · 17/05/2025 08:49

You could have your choice of men, the lavatorial siren

Jopeen, Jopeen, Jopeen, Jopeen,
I'm begging of you, please don't take my man,
Jopeen, Jopeen, Jopeen, Jopeen,
Please don't take him while he's in the can

Your beauty is beyond compare, no saggy tits or flab arse there,
'Cause you're a dude, and you have always been,
You could have your choice of men, the lavatorial siren,
But you don't know what he means to me, Jopeen

UrsulasHerbBag · 17/05/2025 08:58

They should stop spreading such nonsense about because it makes TW less safe. By saying they are hitting on men in the gents It makes them sound predatory and I thought the whole argument for them being in the women’s was they were all “lovely kind and generous souls”.

EdithStourton · 17/05/2025 09:14

Brigitte33 · 16/05/2025 23:10

What about when she’s in the changing room or toilets with your husbands ?
Hoping you won’t have an issue with that

Ffs. No, I wouldn't.
Not at all.

Do I take it that you think:

that men are so sexually incontinent that a TW who looks, at a first glance, like an attractive young woman, will be at risk of sexual assault in the gents

but also

that there is no risk to women if men (and many TW are straight, intact men - never mind the chances who have been enabled by the erosion of boundaries) come into ladies?

Pigeon chess indeed.

thenoisiesttermagant · 17/05/2025 09:17

UrsulasHerbBag · 17/05/2025 08:58

They should stop spreading such nonsense about because it makes TW less safe. By saying they are hitting on men in the gents It makes them sound predatory and I thought the whole argument for them being in the women’s was they were all “lovely kind and generous souls”.

Exactly. But is also a good argument why they absolutely should not be in the women's. If they're making this argument at least some of them must think this way.

And the men they're hitting on in the men's are of equivalent strength so have some chance of a firm 'no' being accepted. Women not so much - VERY MUCH OUR POINT ALL ALONG.

thenoisiesttermagant · 17/05/2025 09:22

It suggests a very distorted view of the world. Men obviously generally have a much higher sex drive than women and seem to be less able to see the sex of a person, being distracted by things like large breasts, even if fake. However, I seriously doubt the vast, vast majority of men think the toilet is an appropriate place for sexual encounters or even mild flirting.

It speaks to no understanding of normal women or men and a disturbing lack of boundaries and possibly an unhealthily porn influenced view of the world.

thenoisiesttermagant · 17/05/2025 09:23

I definitely want male bodied people who think the toilet is an appropriate place for anything sexual out of women's toilets, thanks. Very glad it's been clarified this is the law.

ThatCyanCat · 17/05/2025 09:28

Brigitte knows full well nobody is hitting on TW in the men's. TikTok is currently full of men claiming to be toilet temptresses and he's regurgitating it.

But he obviously thinks whoever that bloke was is attractive so I am all for the two of them having a tete a tete among the urinals if it keeps the Brigittes of the world away from us. It's a public service.

Datun · 17/05/2025 09:32

I'm loving the toilet temptresses and lavatorial sirens 😁

What else?

Bogging beauties?

Carnality in the can?

EvelynBeatrice · 17/05/2025 09:34

We are truly in a parallel universe

RedToothBrush · 17/05/2025 09:38

Brigitte33 · 16/05/2025 23:10

What about when she’s in the changing room or toilets with your husbands ?
Hoping you won’t have an issue with that

Bewilderness's rules of misogyny have one rule that often gets left out because it is a little uncomfortable and controversial.

Her last and final rule is
17. Men are better at performing femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.

Given this poster also made a comment about not wanting to look at our saggy tits and arse and then posted this picture of a supposedly very beautiful transwoman who passes, I think I'm going to throw no17 out because it looks a pretty clear and spot on example which we rarely get so well demonstrated.

ArabellaScott · 17/05/2025 09:46

It's an interesting appeal, because it is based on the insinuation that transwomen have secret insider knowledge of men's sex drives and predilections that women have no understanding of.

This is true.

It does not present a good argument to allow men into women's spaces.

thenoisiesttermagant · 17/05/2025 09:46

Bewildernesses 17th rule is spot on! It's such a warped view of sexuality. I wouldn't be married to DH if he was someone who was open to perving on ANYONE in the toilets. And for any woman who made a mistake, a man perving on anyone in the toilet is surely LTB territory.

These are just not the men who women marry. Read the relationships thread if you want a better understanding of what is acceptable to women.

The overlap between TRA and incel is made ever clearer.

It's actually seriously funny that we're supposed to be jealous rather than repulsed.

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 09:48

RedToothBrush · 17/05/2025 09:38

Bewilderness's rules of misogyny have one rule that often gets left out because it is a little uncomfortable and controversial.

Her last and final rule is
17. Men are better at performing femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.

Given this poster also made a comment about not wanting to look at our saggy tits and arse and then posted this picture of a supposedly very beautiful transwoman who passes, I think I'm going to throw no17 out because it looks a pretty clear and spot on example which we rarely get so well demonstrated.

Is it that they are better at femininity or is it more that we just can't be arsed? I managed to amass friends, a good education, a worthwhile job, DH and DCs all while performing very little femininity. I honestly couldn't see the point of most of it, other than dresses are handy on very hot days.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 17/05/2025 09:51

I just find it truly bizzare that the TRA think that men wouldn’t be able to control themselves if there was a TW in the loo and would be driven to ravish them straight away.

I mean the vast majority of men are straight and yet are able to function around some truly stunning actual women without resorting to sexual assault.

it’s just all one massive sissy porn fantasy

ArabellaScott · 17/05/2025 09:54

Often transwomen base their version of 'femininity' on an extreme pornified fantasy of women with none of the messy biological bits.

That means fake breasts that are purely for sexual gratification, nothing to do with feeding babies. The anime styled big lips, exaggerated long nails, long hair etc.

And whatever genitals are involved they don't bleed, or give birth.

More like sex dolls than actual women. This is roughly the argument Greer presented in the Female Eunuch, 1970 something.

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 09:57

17. Men are better at performing femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.

Actually, I think someone is going to need to explain this rule to me. I don't get it. What is it trying to say?

RedToothBrush · 17/05/2025 09:58

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 09:48

Is it that they are better at femininity or is it more that we just can't be arsed? I managed to amass friends, a good education, a worthwhile job, DH and DCs all while performing very little femininity. I honestly couldn't see the point of most of it, other than dresses are handy on very hot days.

It's that women's value is based on sexual appeal and appearance.

That's why women past a certain age are considered worthless and invisible and not worth considering.

But equally this also applies to transwomen who look like mums basement dweller. They are invisible in the eyes of allies. It's curious observation. The transwomen that are regarded as 'hard done by' are inevitably the ones who pass most. And it's all about the why in which women are valued.

We are not valued as humans or as carers or as mothers. We are valued based on our fuckability. If we aren't fuckable then we aren't worth respecting and listening to.

The curiosity is the transwomen who looks like a basement dweller. In these cases their words speak a lot - we see the incel language - because why won't women fuck me I'm nice, if they don't want to fuck me or let me be vouyeristic around them I'm going to punish them because they should be grateful for my attention and presence.

There isn't really another explanation I'm afraid about the promotion and fawning over passing transwomen and the ignoring of the ones who don't quite hit that bar and just act like the creepy blokes they are.

GoodWorkSally · 17/05/2025 10:00

I asked Mr Pony about the risk of him running off with a TW he met in the gents, and he said something along the lines of , "have to see how it goes" with a shrug. I'm not too worried

My husband nipped into a men's urinal on the seafront and came dashing out because there was a woman in there washing her hands. An actual woman.
It appears to have scared the crap out of him so I'm not worried about blokes in frocks.

RedToothBrush · 17/05/2025 10:03

And actually knowing and understanding this value system is, in itself, a reason why women become so uncomfortable with trans inclusion arguments because we can see straight through it.

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 10:05

RedToothBrush · 17/05/2025 09:58

It's that women's value is based on sexual appeal and appearance.

That's why women past a certain age are considered worthless and invisible and not worth considering.

But equally this also applies to transwomen who look like mums basement dweller. They are invisible in the eyes of allies. It's curious observation. The transwomen that are regarded as 'hard done by' are inevitably the ones who pass most. And it's all about the why in which women are valued.

We are not valued as humans or as carers or as mothers. We are valued based on our fuckability. If we aren't fuckable then we aren't worth respecting and listening to.

The curiosity is the transwomen who looks like a basement dweller. In these cases their words speak a lot - we see the incel language - because why won't women fuck me I'm nice, if they don't want to fuck me or let me be vouyeristic around them I'm going to punish them because they should be grateful for my attention and presence.

There isn't really another explanation I'm afraid about the promotion and fawning over passing transwomen and the ignoring of the ones who don't quite hit that bar and just act like the creepy blokes they are.

Thank you. I will have another cup of coffee and ruminate on your post

ArabellaScott · 17/05/2025 10:17

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 09:57

17. Men are better at performing femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.

Actually, I think someone is going to need to explain this rule to me. I don't get it. What is it trying to say?

The male gaze. Men know what men find sexually attractive (to generalise). It's classing 'femininity' purely as sex appeal. Sex signalling. So males are attracted to things like big breasts, red lips, an hourglass hip/waist ratio, as these signify fertility and sexual availability/excitement. As a rough argument.

It's seeing women purely from a male point of view, sexually objectified.

And using that objectified, hyper sexualised image as a cipher for 'woman'.