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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
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7
WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 11:58

Datun · 17/05/2025 11:50

No, probably not! And and maybe the decisions behind each rule were slightly different. Not a one size fits all kind of thing

It was a set of observations, I believe, that could be almost universally applied when encountering sexism of any description.

If you spot any sexism, it will fit one of those rules.

Perfect synopsis! Thank you

potpourree · 17/05/2025 13:15

illinivich · 17/05/2025 10:58

I remember trying to argue that giving birth was one of the most feminine things i have ever done, because its a thing only women can do. Only to cross post with someone saying woman isnt based on femininity because childbirth is the least feminine thing a woman can do - is not sexy or gentle.

That may have been me... if so, i wasn't disagreeing per se - more finding it interesting that the things that only a woman can do (so you could argue are the most physically "feminine") are pretty far removed from social, cultural etc notions of femininity... except maybe that both involve a woman being vulnerable.

thenoisiesttermagant · 17/05/2025 13:51

Just to be clear, I'm totally fine with TIMs in toilets with my husband. Bring it on. I think it would massively focus his mind about why I'm not keen on them in spaces where our daughters may be. He's already a sex realist, but it might tip him over into sticking his head above the parapet a bit more and acting to ensure his employer follows the law and not Stonewall mens law.

Please, we need the poster campaign. Can the artistic MNetters step up please.

MarieDeGournay · 17/05/2025 13:57

thenoisiesttermagant · 17/05/2025 13:51

Just to be clear, I'm totally fine with TIMs in toilets with my husband. Bring it on. I think it would massively focus his mind about why I'm not keen on them in spaces where our daughters may be. He's already a sex realist, but it might tip him over into sticking his head above the parapet a bit more and acting to ensure his employer follows the law and not Stonewall mens law.

Please, we need the poster campaign. Can the artistic MNetters step up please.

Edited

Alternative, we could just re-purpose those stickers that we've had to put up with in women's toilets, the 'A TRANS PERSON PEED HERE AND NO-ONE DIED'
or 'YOU THINK SOMEONE IS IN THE WRONG BATHROOM? QUESTION YOUR ASSUMPTIONS'😠

illinivich · 17/05/2025 14:00

potpourree · 17/05/2025 13:15

That may have been me... if so, i wasn't disagreeing per se - more finding it interesting that the things that only a woman can do (so you could argue are the most physically "feminine") are pretty far removed from social, cultural etc notions of femininity... except maybe that both involve a woman being vulnerable.

No, i wasnt saying anyone was wrong! Just its interesting how feminine can be open to interpretation, so the rule can make sense or not depending on that.

DecayedStrumpet · 17/05/2025 14:15

I mean, even Brigitte's gotchas show an underlying misogyny don't they

You'd have to assume that women's only interest is in being attractive to men, to try and piss us off by saying noone wants to see our saggy tits
Normal non-porn-fantasy women: "ok, so?"

Again, if you're going to try and annoy us by saying 'ha ha this TW is hotter than you' , you're assuming that women's only value is our fuckability and we will wither and crumble if not considered attractive.

Shows the complete lack of understanding of women as human beings, not as fuckhole NPCs, that underpins the whole genderist movement.

The13thFairy · 17/05/2025 14:28

A man gets his kicks by throwing his weight around and being downright nasty to someone he can see full well is a woman. Misogynistic prick. He's just found a new way to do it. Nothing more than that. And BisiBody - you come across as really pompous; the 'cis' isn't helping either.

ThatCyanCat · 17/05/2025 14:29

I mean, even Brigitte's gotchas show an underlying misogyny don't they

Oh, textbook. He started from the premise that what women care most about is their usefulness for men, which is why he thought he could upset us by suggesting we aren't attractive enough for the compliment of being abused. He doesn't give a shit about women's safety; why would you, if attacks and abuses are compliments? Then he showed us a picture of a bloke wearing all the ornaments of femininity (dress, makeup, styled hair) and suggested that, since these things are all a woman is and all it takes to attract a man (the most important thing), we should feel incredibly threatened by this.

Obviously all this is risible bollocks but it's also a tacit admission that when he's in the men's, he's essentially cruising and now we even know his type. I haven't seen a man struggling this much with a closet door since my last trip to IKEA.

5128gap · 17/05/2025 15:30

Brigitte is projecting like a Kodak Carousel. The sexual interest of heterosexual men would be his ultimate badge of honour and he obviously struggles to understand the difference between his feelings and those of a woman.

ThatCyanCat · 17/05/2025 15:44

A lot of men hate women for what they see as our sexual power over them. For some men, this translates into a desire to become a woman in order to dethrone us, as they see it; they'll be sexier women than we are and of course no other measure matters since it is all defined in relation to what men want.

And some men encourage other men to do it, and destroy women's boundaries, for the same reason.

Some women have shared abusive messages they've received that state this explicitly.

Helleofabore · 17/05/2025 15:55

Helleofabore · 17/05/2025 10:42

When passing becomes a check list of body modifications only, you can certainly understand why so many male people believe they pass. Imagine this:

Passing report:

Breast tissue acquired✔
Fake vulva acquired ✔
Skin softened ✔
Male body hair pattern removed ✔

100% 'pass' - you should now expect everyone in society to act as if you are female.

When the reality is:

Passing report:

Walks with male hip alignment ✔
Male skeletal proportions ✔
Male voice in tonality, timbre ✔
Male skeletal leverage points ✔
Male skull shape ✔
Male facial features, including brow ridge, eye tilt, lip line, spacing between nose and top lip etc etc etc ✔
Male q-angles ✔
Male musculator ✔

This list is very very long...

Edited

Oh. Dear. I realised I posted this on the wrong thread. Sorry.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 17/05/2025 16:52

@BisiBodi why do.you think this is related to the SC judgement, rather than to the gender ideology that has pushed sex sterotypes so hard into public consciousness?

Further thoughts.

She is clearly a woman. A regeettably prejudiced one, but that doesn’t mean she should be bothered in the queue for the Ladies.

It's not a bathroom.

Nobody is cis.

WTF is 'male energy'?

The law is not new. And sex-segregated lavatories pre-date it by well over a century.

By his wife's reaction, I suspect he has form - and may well have been doing this sort of thing long before the SC judgement.

Why are you (and she) blaming women for the actions of an aggressive man?

You need to read up on the 1960s, 70s and 80s. And 90s, come to that. And the Judys of the 1950s.

SternJoyousBee · 17/05/2025 18:57

Helleofabore · 17/05/2025 15:55

Oh. Dear. I realised I posted this on the wrong thread. Sorry.

I think this should probably be posted regularly on most threads.

DeanElderberry · 17/05/2025 19:52

SternJoyousBee · 17/05/2025 18:57

I think this should probably be posted regularly on most threads.

Yup, can't be posted too often.

HardyCrow · 17/05/2025 21:04

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:10

@Alucard55
Yes, people keep repeating that same line.
But please someone say what you are ACTUALLY afraid of happening in that situation.
Just judgements no real reasons is all I see.

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

i believe someone may have already mentioned this. TW are men we don’t want them in single sex spaces because then they wouldn’t be single sex.

HardyCrow · 17/05/2025 21:25

potpourree · 15/05/2025 19:31

Sure if Gary the builder buys a frock on and calls himself Sally, I don’t want to be in the toilet with him. But that’s not a trans woman. That’s Gary being a creepy dude.

I can't work out the point of this post - Is this supposed to be a quote from a "frothing terf" and not the poster's own view? Surely the poster knows that that's a "frothing terf" statement? That's what you get called when you say things like "sex exists and on some occasions it matters".

So no working class TIM’s. Did you really mean to speak that out loud.

EmpressaurusKitty · 17/05/2025 21:27

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

Any TIM who’s exclusively attracted to women is a straight man. But I don’t want men in a changing space with me whatever their sexuality.

GoodWorkSally · 17/05/2025 23:23

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would

Many transwomen are straight men.

Frazzled83 · 18/05/2025 11:02

Wtf is a sock puppet???

This may be outside the realms of what is conceiveable, but sometimes people sign up to stuff twice because they forget they signed up before or passwords. I looked on two seperate devices, one I don’t use much, which must have had previous account still logged in. I didn’t even realise it was a thing. The only reason I’m giving any energy to replying is just to demonstrate that sometimes things aren’t some massive attempt at deception, but are something very benign based on (in this case) someone having a spectacularly shit memory. Things are often not as important as we think they are.

Mumsnet is generally something I scroll while I sit waiting for my kid to be asleep enough so I can escape the bedroom. I rarely comment on anything and this has very much confirmed why. I clearly had a lapse of judgement here.

drspouse · 18/05/2025 11:07

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:10

@Alucard55
Yes, people keep repeating that same line.
But please someone say what you are ACTUALLY afraid of happening in that situation.
Just judgements no real reasons is all I see.

Would you not be more afraid of a straight man in a changing space with you. I know I would.

Are you conflating sexual attraction with identifying as the opposite sex? That's quite homophobic you know to think if you're a gay man you are the same as a transwoman. Like men can't be attracted to other men

BeLemonNow · 18/05/2025 15:01

Obviously this man acted unreasonably but so did this woman "Caz" in moving very quickly to threaten to show their "tits" rather than politely explaining that she was indeed a woman, just with short hair and in the right place. As she has a female voice, hopefully that would have done the trick.

I'm also not sure what this has to do with the Supreme Court judgement. There's no indication that "Caz" was mistaken for trans or as you say that these new "laws and rules" (which aren't new single sex loos has been around for ions) has anything to do with it.

BeLemonNow · 18/05/2025 15:18

Also , "I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was."

Well no, maybe it wasn't obvious to him. People do get in the wrong queue and can be oblivious to their surroundings. And you don't know he didn't have a learning difficulty etc.

Again it doesn't justify the aggression of the man, but also Caz escalated the situation by refusing to answer.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/05/2025 15:32

BeLemonNow · 18/05/2025 15:18

Also , "I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was."

Well no, maybe it wasn't obvious to him. People do get in the wrong queue and can be oblivious to their surroundings. And you don't know he didn't have a learning difficulty etc.

Again it doesn't justify the aggression of the man, but also Caz escalated the situation by refusing to answer.

It's desperation. Anything that can be found to suggest that others will suffer if men aren't allowed into places where women are undressed. DARVO, squirrels and pigeon chess - all at the same time 😂

BeLemonNow · 18/05/2025 17:20

Yes exactly. DARVO. We've seen with Sandie Peggie that just asking = aggression. Nothing he actually said seemed aggressive. But she's admitted refusing to confirm her sex, asking what sex she appears to be and threatening / starting to get her breasts out and saying she wished she told him to "fuck off". It's not a normal reaction.

spherically · 18/05/2025 17:24

BeLemonNow · 18/05/2025 15:18

Also , "I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was."

Well no, maybe it wasn't obvious to him. People do get in the wrong queue and can be oblivious to their surroundings. And you don't know he didn't have a learning difficulty etc.

Again it doesn't justify the aggression of the man, but also Caz escalated the situation by refusing to answer.

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0EQvS94WMDfLBmJEVA4bUY8zsffUsEYACUyfq8LiZRtHH13DaQaaBXXjBs3ejXR2Yl&id=580996465

Not sure if this has already been linked but here's the original post.