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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
YourWiseBee · 16/05/2025 23:15

Brigitte33 · 16/05/2025 23:10

What about when she’s in the changing room or toilets with your husbands ?
Hoping you won’t have an issue with that

Why would that be a problem? My husband is heterosexual. It’s kind of the reason he married me.

and he just goes to the toilet to pee 🤦‍♀️

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 23:15

Helleofabore · 16/05/2025 23:01

And yet the question of the relevance of your post is valid. I asked it because I wanted to understand if you had any other points that would give further background to your post.

You have clarified that you had no other point to offer. Great. It seems you haven’t extrapolated your thought further as to how your point relates to the OP. That is fine. I suspect what has happened is you posted something to an OP who has posted this thread dishonestly and maybe you have understood why the OP posted it.

The OP posted it in, what seems from their posting history, an attempt to shame women and girls from asking what sex a person accessing a single sex space is. They certainly didn’t post it to discuss it. To be fair, they pretty much indicated that they had not intention of doing that in the first part of the post.

I have no idea what the OP was hoping for. I posted in response to the OP because it happens to be something I’ve been thinking about and I genuinely think in practice it’s not so much about whether someone IS male or female but whether they LOOK male or female, and I don’t know how anyone polices that. It was an observation more than anything else.
Thank you, though — you have been less impatient (for want of a better word) than others.

DialSquare · 16/05/2025 23:21

Brigitte33 · 16/05/2025 23:10

What about when she’s in the changing room or toilets with your husbands ?
Hoping you won’t have an issue with that

I never have an issue with the other men sharing male single sex spaces with my partner.

Sortumn · 16/05/2025 23:23

Depends if the bloke is making a nuisance of himself or not....My husband was once beside a man at a urinal who was making inappropriate comments. He left quickly but it could have gone either way, as my husband has quite a short fuse.

Helleofabore · 16/05/2025 23:23

Brigitte33 · 16/05/2025 23:10

What about when she’s in the changing room or toilets with your husbands ?
Hoping you won’t have an issue with that

Blimey!

Hang on, are you the poster who told us that no one wanted to see our saggy tits and flabby arses? Are we to be concerned that our husbands will be looking at a male’s extreme body modifications and preferring a male’s modified body over our saggy and flabby ones?

Or concerned that they will ask someone (I cannot see the image as I am on my phone) I suspect is male to leave because that male has extreme body modifications? Or worse. Do you expect that our husbands will physically remove that person?

I am keen to understand what you think our husbands might do?

I reckon mine won’t react at all. He is a big bloke and doesn’t feel concerned about his safety so doesn’t notice who is in the loos.

Alucard55 · 16/05/2025 23:24

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 23:15

I have no idea what the OP was hoping for. I posted in response to the OP because it happens to be something I’ve been thinking about and I genuinely think in practice it’s not so much about whether someone IS male or female but whether they LOOK male or female, and I don’t know how anyone polices that. It was an observation more than anything else.
Thank you, though — you have been less impatient (for want of a better word) than others.

I take your point and I posted above saying that we can't police toilets and changing rooms but we can police spaces and categories where biological sex is noted.

pearandchocolate · 16/05/2025 23:28

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 23:15

I have no idea what the OP was hoping for. I posted in response to the OP because it happens to be something I’ve been thinking about and I genuinely think in practice it’s not so much about whether someone IS male or female but whether they LOOK male or female, and I don’t know how anyone polices that. It was an observation more than anything else.
Thank you, though — you have been less impatient (for want of a better word) than others.

It needs very little policing, because most of the time someone's appearance is a very good guide to their sex.

Non-stereotypical hair, clothes and make up don't make that as difficult as I think some trans people believe

Or, to put it another way, humans are actually pretty good at identifying the sex of other humans using their eyes and ears.

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 23:29

Helleofabore · 16/05/2025 23:23

Blimey!

Hang on, are you the poster who told us that no one wanted to see our saggy tits and flabby arses? Are we to be concerned that our husbands will be looking at a male’s extreme body modifications and preferring a male’s modified body over our saggy and flabby ones?

Or concerned that they will ask someone (I cannot see the image as I am on my phone) I suspect is male to leave because that male has extreme body modifications? Or worse. Do you expect that our husbands will physically remove that person?

I am keen to understand what you think our husbands might do?

I reckon mine won’t react at all. He is a big bloke and doesn’t feel concerned about his safety so doesn’t notice who is in the loos.

Yeah, that's him. There's been a trend for a while on social media of men in highly filtered videos looking like they're beaming in from Mars doing their makeup, pouting and hair flipping and saying, "So I hope you'll be OK with me doing this in the gents next to your husband."

Yes, I am. In fact, I hope you film it. It'll be fucking gold, trust me.

BiologicalRobot · 16/05/2025 23:29

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 23:15

I have no idea what the OP was hoping for. I posted in response to the OP because it happens to be something I’ve been thinking about and I genuinely think in practice it’s not so much about whether someone IS male or female but whether they LOOK male or female, and I don’t know how anyone polices that. It was an observation more than anything else.
Thank you, though — you have been less impatient (for want of a better word) than others.

and I don’t know how anyone polices that

It is self policing and always has been from the very beginning, it's really not a new or difficult concept so why are so many people having trouble with it? Are they really that fucking dumb? Decent, respectful, law abiding men will stay out of women's single sex spaces. Creepy, disrespectful men won't.

WithSilverBells · 16/05/2025 23:34

Brigitte33 · 16/05/2025 23:10

What about when she’s in the changing room or toilets with your husbands ?
Hoping you won’t have an issue with that

You are going to have to explain why we would have an issue with that. I don't understand

mrshoho · 16/05/2025 23:43

BiologicalRobot · 16/05/2025 23:29

and I don’t know how anyone polices that

It is self policing and always has been from the very beginning, it's really not a new or difficult concept so why are so many people having trouble with it? Are they really that fucking dumb? Decent, respectful, law abiding men will stay out of women's single sex spaces. Creepy, disrespectful men won't.

And now we have clarity following the SC ruling so that the creepy, disrespectful men who continue to enter women's single sex spaces, won't be able to proclaim that the law is on their side. Business owners will no longer have the threat of being sued by these smug arseholes.

LesserCelandine · 16/05/2025 23:47

Alucard55 · 16/05/2025 23:24

I take your point and I posted above saying that we can't police toilets and changing rooms but we can police spaces and categories where biological sex is noted.

We can report men in female spaces for sexual harassment, especially in a work situation.

Helleofabore · 16/05/2025 23:47

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 23:15

I have no idea what the OP was hoping for. I posted in response to the OP because it happens to be something I’ve been thinking about and I genuinely think in practice it’s not so much about whether someone IS male or female but whether they LOOK male or female, and I don’t know how anyone polices that. It was an observation more than anything else.
Thank you, though — you have been less impatient (for want of a better word) than others.

No worries. But perhaps the difference is that many posters on fhis thread have thought through the scenario and its implications. And come to understand what can be done to police the situation.

And I also think people are disagreeing with your articulation about ‘looking male or female’ and what that implies. It becomes a question of how does someone look male or female?

Is it a) the clothes, hair and make up or b) is it the abiding and unchanging body cues that female people are likely to quickly analyse to access someone’s sex?

If you have not thought it through, to process your point to the final implication on policy, and I guess policing, then maybe you will find reading these threads and asking questions may help you work out your position.

Because the situation is actually quite simple. No one ‘policed’ toilets and rarely changing rooms in the past. Why do we need to now?

That is the point that the extreme trans activists don’t consider. That women used what we could in the past to collectively make spaces safer. We asked questions if we were unsure. We alerted other women or children entering if we thought there might be a concern. We contacted the police or security if needed.

What other policing was needed? What other policing do we need now?

Sure, male people will access those spaces. Less will though if there is a punishment as the consequence of continuing to access those spaces. And we will also then be very clear that any male entering the space will be doing so deliberately which will then harm female people. They will know they are not allowed by law to be there so they will be breaking the law.

The OP used the situation as a shaming tactic. We have had daily threads on FWR on just this type of scenario for weeks now. This is just another one posted without any intention to discuss.

The situation has become a tool to silence women, when the reality is we know it has always happened, some of us have personally experienced it. It also makes no difference at all as to whether the law should be in place or not. Because no law 100% prevents the thing from occurring that it is there to prevent or deter.

LesserCelandine · 16/05/2025 23:49

Without reading back, is Brigette33 now saying men in public toilets are at risk of attack from trans identified men? That is a new twist.

mrshoho · 16/05/2025 23:49

Brigitte33 · 16/05/2025 23:10

What about when she’s in the changing room or toilets with your husbands ?
Hoping you won’t have an issue with that

You'll be relieved to know I won't have any issues with that.

Seethlaw · 16/05/2025 23:51

LesserCelandine · 16/05/2025 23:49

Without reading back, is Brigette33 now saying men in public toilets are at risk of attack from trans identified men? That is a new twist.

At risk of lust attack, apparently.

Helleofabore · 16/05/2025 23:51

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 23:29

Yeah, that's him. There's been a trend for a while on social media of men in highly filtered videos looking like they're beaming in from Mars doing their makeup, pouting and hair flipping and saying, "So I hope you'll be OK with me doing this in the gents next to your husband."

Yes, I am. In fact, I hope you film it. It'll be fucking gold, trust me.

Yes. I have been seeing those across social media.

I think that those male people are likely to be very disappointed.

LesserCelandine · 16/05/2025 23:55

I think a lot of people who have got on board with transideology would never have done so if filters were not a thing.

Alucard55 · 16/05/2025 23:58

LesserCelandine · 16/05/2025 23:47

We can report men in female spaces for sexual harassment, especially in a work situation.

Yes and I certainly wouldn't have an issue telling a man to get out of a female only space or reporting him. My point is that women really shouldn't need to police their single sex spaces men should just stay out. I also think that toilets and changing rooms aside, lots of single sex spaces are policed and entry is dependent on biological sex. I hope that men being told "No you don't belong in this space/category" will filter down.

illinivich · 17/05/2025 00:01

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 23:15

I have no idea what the OP was hoping for. I posted in response to the OP because it happens to be something I’ve been thinking about and I genuinely think in practice it’s not so much about whether someone IS male or female but whether they LOOK male or female, and I don’t know how anyone polices that. It was an observation more than anything else.
Thank you, though — you have been less impatient (for want of a better word) than others.

Most women, if challenged in the toilet or changing room, would pass the 'excuse me, are you supposed to be here?' check. And most women wont mind, might be a little insulted at worst.

Most TW won't pass the check, and the consequences worst for them. Even if its just been made aware that they arent seen as women.

Thats why there is an informal campaign to suggest that just asking the question will cause too much upset to women. When really its the men who'll be upset.

Men, if they continue to use women spaces will always risk being challenged because it'll be difficult to pass all of the time.

So yes, its based on appearance, but lets be realistic about the chances of passing as the opposite sex.

I dont know what I'd do if my husband use the toilets and changing room at the same time as a man in a dress. Just hope he doesnt leave me for him, i suppose.

Alucard55 · 17/05/2025 00:04

My husband would come and tell me there's a dude in a dress in the toilets. I'd say the mens or the womens. He'd say the mens and I'd say so what's the issue?

LesserCelandine · 17/05/2025 00:17

Alucard55 · 16/05/2025 23:58

Yes and I certainly wouldn't have an issue telling a man to get out of a female only space or reporting him. My point is that women really shouldn't need to police their single sex spaces men should just stay out. I also think that toilets and changing rooms aside, lots of single sex spaces are policed and entry is dependent on biological sex. I hope that men being told "No you don't belong in this space/category" will filter down.

I totally agree. I was just pointing out that employers can’t get away with ‘we can’t police toilets/changing rooms’ as failing to make sure their employees comply with the law leaves them open to sexual harassment claims. Service providers might find this too though they will have less control than an employer.

Alucard55 · 17/05/2025 00:27

LesserCelandine · 17/05/2025 00:17

I totally agree. I was just pointing out that employers can’t get away with ‘we can’t police toilets/changing rooms’ as failing to make sure their employees comply with the law leaves them open to sexual harassment claims. Service providers might find this too though they will have less control than an employer.

We're on the same page here I was trying to engage with the poster who was saying it's appearance not fact that matters. I do think they have a valid point although are not making it very well.

I hope the law suits come thick and fast if any employers don't comply. I was more thinking of public toilets and that if we are being realistic some entitled men will still use the women's. It would be great if everyone who witnessed this would speak up or report it but I think most will keep their head down. I'm optimistically hopeful that men being told no in the spaces and categories where it really matters will filter down and make them think twice about this nonsense where they think they are women and should be welcomed with open arms by their sisters into female spaces.

GoodWorkSally · 17/05/2025 01:16

What about when she’s in the changing room or toilets with your husbands ?
Hoping you won’t have an issue with that

Doesn't look like anyone who'd pop in the bog down the Dog and Duck.

GoodWorkSally · 17/05/2025 01:18

The hands always give it away.