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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
illinivich · 17/05/2025 10:23

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 09:57

17. Men are better at performing femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.

Actually, I think someone is going to need to explain this rule to me. I don't get it. What is it trying to say?

Its similar to Suzanne Moore saying the ideal body is that of a Brazilian transvestite. That there are performances of feminity that exists just to appeal to male sexuality. And because of that certain men understand and want to follow the rules far more than women do.

Its unthinkable to india Willoughby that women wouldn't shave their legs - because it suggest that they arent thinking of the feminine performances or wanting to follow the rules at all time.

spherically · 17/05/2025 10:29

Brigitte33 · 16/05/2025 23:10

What about when she’s in the changing room or toilets with your husbands ?
Hoping you won’t have an issue with that

Using "she" to refer to a man 😂

illinivich · 17/05/2025 10:32

It also explains why men think that they pass - they are looking at individual porny elements and not their overall look. Like high heel, eye lashes, creating a walk. They are performing what appeals to themselves and not lingering on anything else.

They don't understand that women arent seeing them as a sexual checklist, and instead just see a man performing 'woman'.

ArabellaScott · 17/05/2025 10:36

illinivich · 17/05/2025 10:32

It also explains why men think that they pass - they are looking at individual porny elements and not their overall look. Like high heel, eye lashes, creating a walk. They are performing what appeals to themselves and not lingering on anything else.

They don't understand that women arent seeing them as a sexual checklist, and instead just see a man performing 'woman'.

Absolutely. Never mind the gait, height, proportions, bone structure, LOOK AT THE TITS.

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 10:38

Thanks for all the input everyone. i think I am struggling with whether rule 17 is meant to be sarcastic or not. I guess that is going to depend on what is being meant by 'femininity'.

Helleofabore · 17/05/2025 10:42

When passing becomes a check list of body modifications only, you can certainly understand why so many male people believe they pass. Imagine this:

Passing report:

Breast tissue acquired✔
Fake vulva acquired ✔
Skin softened ✔
Male body hair pattern removed ✔

100% 'pass' - you should now expect everyone in society to act as if you are female.

When the reality is:

Passing report:

Walks with male hip alignment ✔
Male skeletal proportions ✔
Male voice in tonality, timbre ✔
Male skeletal leverage points ✔
Male skull shape ✔
Male facial features, including brow ridge, eye tilt, lip line, spacing between nose and top lip etc etc etc ✔
Male q-angles ✔
Male musculator ✔

This list is very very long...

illinivich · 17/05/2025 10:46

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 10:38

Thanks for all the input everyone. i think I am struggling with whether rule 17 is meant to be sarcastic or not. I guess that is going to depend on what is being meant by 'femininity'.

Ive never seen it as sarcastic. More that when people say 'x is more feminine than most women'. They arent saying that the man has a more female body, more that they are acting and dressing in a more expected way. Like always wear heels or giggle or something. And most women just dont keep the act up?

ArabellaScott · 17/05/2025 10:51

There's a bit of sarcasm in there, because of the tension between imagining femininity is something that women invented - to be sexually appealing - or whether its men's invention.

It sounds a bit daft to say that men invented femininity because we think of it as a female generated thing. But it's arguably a communication I suppose, a form of signalling.

We perform femininity, to paraphrase various feminists including probably Judith Butler.

Another argument might be that a woman is feminine purely by virtue of being female and everything she does is therefore feminine.

It could be quite a complicated feminist/evolutionary/anthropological discussion.

SternJoyousBee · 17/05/2025 10:52

Most transwomen don’t ’pass’ and they know they don’t pass. If they did there would be no need for the ‘educational’ posters in loos telling people NOT to challenge or stare. This isn’t to protect women who don’t look stereotypically feminine.

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
ArabellaScott · 17/05/2025 10:53

Sorry that was over long.

Femininity generally means 'gender', or sex stereotypes. It's not necessarily tied to sex.

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 10:55

illinivich · 17/05/2025 10:46

Ive never seen it as sarcastic. More that when people say 'x is more feminine than most women'. They arent saying that the man has a more female body, more that they are acting and dressing in a more expected way. Like always wear heels or giggle or something. And most women just dont keep the act up?

That makes sense to me. However, the other rules of misogyny are sarcastic, so maybe that is what is confusing me.
13. Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves.
14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.
15. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others.
Obviously I am not going to believe those, but a misogynist would

17. Men are better at performing femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.
I could agree with that statement.

Sortumn · 17/05/2025 10:55

GoodWorkSally · 17/05/2025 10:00

I asked Mr Pony about the risk of him running off with a TW he met in the gents, and he said something along the lines of , "have to see how it goes" with a shrug. I'm not too worried

My husband nipped into a men's urinal on the seafront and came dashing out because there was a woman in there washing her hands. An actual woman.
It appears to have scared the crap out of him so I'm not worried about blokes in frocks.

I once walked into the men's missed sex toilets (labelled on the door - urinals, basins, cubicle) rather than the women's mixed sex toilets by accident when on a night out.
The man at the sink and the one at the urinal looked horrified and I quickly backed out and went and found the women's mixed sex toilets.
They certainly weren't comfortable with this new fangled anyone can use any public loo malarkey.

illinivich · 17/05/2025 10:58

I remember trying to argue that giving birth was one of the most feminine things i have ever done, because its a thing only women can do. Only to cross post with someone saying woman isnt based on femininity because childbirth is the least feminine thing a woman can do - is not sexy or gentle.

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 11:01

ArabellaScott · 17/05/2025 10:51

There's a bit of sarcasm in there, because of the tension between imagining femininity is something that women invented - to be sexually appealing - or whether its men's invention.

It sounds a bit daft to say that men invented femininity because we think of it as a female generated thing. But it's arguably a communication I suppose, a form of signalling.

We perform femininity, to paraphrase various feminists including probably Judith Butler.

Another argument might be that a woman is feminine purely by virtue of being female and everything she does is therefore feminine.

It could be quite a complicated feminist/evolutionary/anthropological discussion.

There's a bit of sarcasm in there, because of the tension between imagining femininity is something that women invented - to be sexually appealing - or whether its men's invention.

Yep, that is why I was struggling with it. Thanks for reading my confused thoughts and then giving them clarity, ArabellaSmile

ArabellaScott · 17/05/2025 11:02

I dunno about clarity, sorry! 😂

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 11:04

I can see why number 17 is sometimes omitted😂

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/05/2025 11:05

Fascinating discussion.
Of course, this type of questioning would never have been allowed a year plus ago. Most of the posts would have been deleted. I'm not criticising MNHQ as they've hosted a debate where one side repeatedly target the other for speaking the truth.

But finally the underpinning issues are being exposed - very helpfully showcased on this thread by the sexualised, misogynistic views of women from a couple of posters .

It's so important to expose precisely why this ideology is completely unsuitable to be anywhere near children and schools. And why the hysterical insistence on the rights of men to access unconsenting, undressed women is based on contempt and sexual fantasies.

SternJoyousBee · 17/05/2025 11:09

illinivich · 17/05/2025 10:58

I remember trying to argue that giving birth was one of the most feminine things i have ever done, because its a thing only women can do. Only to cross post with someone saying woman isnt based on femininity because childbirth is the least feminine thing a woman can do - is not sexy or gentle.

The childbirth comment was also made by Germaine Greer in her interview with Ch 4 news.

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/12KjfFJ1dvH/?mibextid=wwXIfr

HardyCrow · 17/05/2025 11:20

Helleofabore · 17/05/2025 10:42

When passing becomes a check list of body modifications only, you can certainly understand why so many male people believe they pass. Imagine this:

Passing report:

Breast tissue acquired✔
Fake vulva acquired ✔
Skin softened ✔
Male body hair pattern removed ✔

100% 'pass' - you should now expect everyone in society to act as if you are female.

When the reality is:

Passing report:

Walks with male hip alignment ✔
Male skeletal proportions ✔
Male voice in tonality, timbre ✔
Male skeletal leverage points ✔
Male skull shape ✔
Male facial features, including brow ridge, eye tilt, lip line, spacing between nose and top lip etc etc etc ✔
Male q-angles ✔
Male musculator ✔

This list is very very long...

Edited

Male entitlement

Datun · 17/05/2025 11:28

ArabellaScott · 17/05/2025 10:17

The male gaze. Men know what men find sexually attractive (to generalise). It's classing 'femininity' purely as sex appeal. Sex signalling. So males are attracted to things like big breasts, red lips, an hourglass hip/waist ratio, as these signify fertility and sexual availability/excitement. As a rough argument.

It's seeing women purely from a male point of view, sexually objectified.

And using that objectified, hyper sexualised image as a cipher for 'woman'.

This.

A multi billion pound industry formulated around getting women to look like men's fantasy of what they should look like. From face creams to push-up bras.

So when you get men identifying as women, this is the 'woman' they identify as.

Hence the short skirts, fishnets, etc.

I think the homosexual transsexuals are slightly different. Those are gay men trying to attract a straight man. And purely through my own observation, they want to be girly, slightly knock-kneed, kookie, helpless, that sort of 'femininity'. Presumably wanting to attract a bit of a 'he-man' type.

But again, it's all based on sex.

And fuck all to do with actual womanhood.

Datun · 17/05/2025 11:31

Oh sorry, I was replying to a post from ages ago. I hadn't realised more had occurred!

I'm all out of sync 😳

Datun · 17/05/2025 11:37

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 10:55

That makes sense to me. However, the other rules of misogyny are sarcastic, so maybe that is what is confusing me.
13. Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves.
14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.
15. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others.
Obviously I am not going to believe those, but a misogynist would

17. Men are better at performing femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.
I could agree with that statement.

I don't think it's sarcasm, so much as what the author thought a misogynist would actually think.

And I have to say, the deeper you get into this fricking ideology, the more they all make absolute sense.

DeanElderberry · 17/05/2025 11:39

Women don't need to do femininity because we are female, which is different. And real, not performative.

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 11:40

I don't think it's sarcasm, so much as what the author thought a misogynist would actually think

Fair enough. But would a misogynist actually think number 17 then? I'm not sure he would

Datun · 17/05/2025 11:50

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 11:40

I don't think it's sarcasm, so much as what the author thought a misogynist would actually think

Fair enough. But would a misogynist actually think number 17 then? I'm not sure he would

No, probably not! And and maybe the decisions behind each rule were slightly different. Not a one size fits all kind of thing

It was a set of observations, I believe, that could be almost universally applied when encountering sexism of any description.

If you spot any sexism, it will fit one of those rules.