Page 8 | BBC series I Kissed a Boy decision "homophobic in the extreme" - LGB Alliance

IwantToRetire · 2025-05-11T17:52:07+00:00

^We have written to Tim Davie, Director-General of the BBC, about the homophobia displayed in the casting of a trans identified female in their upcoming series of ‘I Kissed A Boy’.^ ^By doing this they are telling young gay men watching the show that they must be attracted to women who are pretending to be male. This is regressive, insulting and ‘homophobic in the extreme.’^ ^Read our letter here:^ [[https://lgballiance.org.uk/bbc-series-homophobic-in-the-extreme https://lgballiance.org.uk/bbc-series-homophobic-in-the-extreme/]] (Sorry cant find a version of the letter that isn't text via a graphic.)

SionnachRuadh · 07/06/2025 00:37

Tumblr culture is something I completely missed out on - was too old for it TBH - and that seems to be the key to lots of what seems weird in the general culture now.

Comics used to be one of my fandoms, and I don't read the contemporary stuff, but I do follow industry gossip. There are an extraordinary number of straight women in the business pretending to be lesbians. I don't mean saying they're bisexual, which nobody can check, but flat out declaring themselves to be lesbians when you know they're married to men. I always assumed that was for cynical career reasons.

Meanwhile the actual lesbians who were always a small but lively part of the industry are all now identifying as men. The one who comes to mind is Nate Stevenson, who used to go by Noelle. Stevenson is a talented artist with a distinctive style. At the risk of stereotyping, it's an extremely girly style.

The whole dynamic always seemed very weird to me, but for the younger women involved I assume it's mediated by Tumblr.

TempestTost · 07/06/2025 02:18

SionnachRuadh · 06/06/2025 00:02

With our generation, girls read Jackie Collins and boys read Harold Robbins. There were tons of their books in the library and the second hand shops.

(This doesn't necessarily disprove your point. Harold Robbins was clearly a very strange man with some odd sexual preoccupations.)

Those books not being literature wasn't really the point. They were entertainment, which is a fine thing to be. But you wouldn't want kids to use them as a source of instruction about relationships.

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I think many kids go through a stage of reading rather poor stuff. I'm not sure I;d have said it was smut as such, for the most part.

I think that just as with porn, the medium itself is a significant part of the impact. It's just so much, and anything can be posted, there is not even the need to be acceptable to a rather lazy editorial process.

GreenFriedTomato · 07/06/2025 02:24

@lcakethereforeIam
I remember years ago Xena and Gabrielle being made a couple by a section of their fans. That became a thing in the show although I doubt, from the way they danced around it, it was what the creators originally intended.

Funny, I used Mulder and Sculley in my example but my initial thoughts went to Xena. I was a huge fan of the TV series and has a massive crush 😂

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 07/06/2025 07:06

lcakethereforeIam · 06/06/2025 10:51

I remember years ago Xena and Gabrielle being made a couple by a section of their fans. That became a thing in the show although I doubt, from the way they danced around it, it was what the creators originally intended. There was probably a similar thing with Hercules and Iolaus. Which, if I recall my Greek myths correctly, would have been truer to the source material. I doubt the star of Hercules would have been keen on that though🤣.

I'm not a fan of romantasy, enemies to lovers type stuff. The stories, to me, often get broken in service to the relationships. I don't read fanfic but some of them do make it into print (I've seen a few Arthur and Lancelot). Then there are those self published on Amazon, which can catch you out if you buy ebooks. I accidentally read one that took a sudden turn into a homosexual relationship, illiterally from nowhere. Nothing explicit, when things progressed beyond loving glances, kisses and caresses it just faded into the paragraph break. Written by a woman.

Back in the 1990s one of my friends showed me some K&S porn. I cringed. I've been fond of a bit of a bit of implied bromance since childhood (Rosemary Sutcliffe, anyone?) but guuuys - keep your latent content latent! Make it explicit and spoil the fun, why don't you.

And as for thinking you can take hormones and live it - fantasy is fantasy. It's not going to work any more than expecting some hunky bloke to sweep you off your feet into happy ever after.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 07/06/2025 08:28

I enjoy the Strike books but Cormoran Strike makes me giggle because he's such a conventional romantic hero, Mr Rochester with muscle. He's the son or a rock star! He's a misanthropic war hero! He's even got the mad wife. JKR is my generation and that's the kind of romance we grew up with. Germaine Greer wrote about it in "The Female Eunuch". She also wrote about rock concerts and screaming fans and how sexually aroused teenage girls were by androgynous / boyish rock stars.

AliasGrace47 · 08/06/2025 02:41

TempestTost · 05/06/2025 23:46

I don't disagree, but I don't think that what most kids are reading rises to the level of literature or even erotica. Nor are most traditional romance novels for that matter. What male porn does around sex, romance novels do around romance. It's not totally divorced from the real thing or it wouldn't be compelling at all, but it's a shadow of a shadow.

So something like Wuthering Heights might be romance literature, but how many kids are reading that? They are reading Twilight, or 50 Shades, or a knock off of 50 Shades.

Hmm...when you say most YA fiction is smut, dp you mean solely about sex, or that it's poorly written romance? Twilight, or newer romantasy like Sarah J Maas or Rebecca Yaros does feature sex scenes but also a fantasy plot. The sex scenes are not the center piece, but the romance is. But is romance smut? I would call smut a story that's mostly sex.

JazzyJelly · 08/06/2025 14:02

Fawning reviews on Points of View. No criticism apart from 'not enough diversity of body types'.

murasaki · 08/06/2025 14:07

JazzyJelly · 08/06/2025 14:02

Fawning reviews on Points of View. No criticism apart from 'not enough diversity of body types'.

But there was diversity of body types, one of them was female....

AliasGrace47 · 08/06/2025 16:31

lcakethereforeIam · 06/06/2025 10:51

I remember years ago Xena and Gabrielle being made a couple by a section of their fans. That became a thing in the show although I doubt, from the way they danced around it, it was what the creators originally intended. There was probably a similar thing with Hercules and Iolaus. Which, if I recall my Greek myths correctly, would have been truer to the source material. I doubt the star of Hercules would have been keen on that though🤣.

I'm not a fan of romantasy, enemies to lovers type stuff. The stories, to me, often get broken in service to the relationships. I don't read fanfic but some of them do make it into print (I've seen a few Arthur and Lancelot). Then there are those self published on Amazon, which can catch you out if you buy ebooks. I accidentally read one that took a sudden turn into a homosexual relationship, illiterally from nowhere. Nothing explicit, when things progressed beyond loving glances, kisses and caresses it just faded into the paragraph break. Written by a woman.

Oh, that makes me a bit sad... Before I saw this post I read a bit about Xena & it was described as a pioneering lesbian show.

Digging in, I see that there's some debate as to whether they intended some subtext from the start or at least were aware it could be perceived that way. But certainly they ended up leaning into it w deliberate innuendo & the kiss at the end. Some writers & actors say they are, others say it wasn't meant that way but they see how it could be interpreted like that.

Ofc, even if they had intended it from the start, lgb rights & tv rep were very different in the early 2000s and 1990s, so it's not surprising they danced around it for that reason.

Sorry for the derail!

AliasGrace47 · 08/06/2025 16:39

SnoopyPajamas · 07/06/2025 00:32

Yes, there's a definite sense that the gays can have a dating show, but only on the condition straight people would feel comfortable watching it.

It's the same reason lesbian dating show contestants are all high femme and look like they wandered off the set of The Bachelorette. With one token soft butch in the mix, who is permitted a short haircut

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So true. Butch lesbians are still sadly underrepresented in that kind of thing, seen as threatening or just unattractive. If someone marketed a dating show that represented them properly, I think it would have a good following though, lesbians are a loyal audience.

AliasGrace47 · 08/06/2025 16:44

SnoopyPajamas · 05/06/2025 19:21

This is very true, and was always a problem in fanfiction. It's a fascinating subject, because it's very much a window into how women try to 'process' male sexuality.

In some cases, they write men as they want them to be. Essentially, male bodies, female minds. It's wish fulfillment.

In others, they're writing what they have absorbed heterosexual relationships to be. One brutish, dominant partner, and one sweet submissive one, as you describe. They've made them gay men in an attempt to escape that, but it comes through anyway. You can really tell that this is how they see the world. Fundamentally. It's very uncomfortable.

The apex (or the nadir) of this is the omegaverse. It's this flat-out animalistic depiction of male sexuality, where he will go into heat and forcefully take his partner because he can't control himself, he can't fight the biological urge! Often this ends up paired with mpreg. If you wrote this as a piece of fiction with straight characters, it would be appalling and no reader would encourage the woman to stay with the man. But it's usually written with gay men instead, so it gets a pass. I won't comment on the homophobia inherent in that, but it really does show how many women have internalised the idea that male arousal = love, and being forcibly taken by a man = passion, and the female role in a relationship is to be submissive and breedable.

It's one of those tropes I just don't understand, and consider a bit of a red flag. It suggests a very warped view of gender and relationships. Especially given these are overwhelmingly presented as love stories. Not some sort of alternate horrorverse everyone is desperately trying to break free from 😂

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This is really interesting to me as I am a great anime fan, and while I don't like yaoi, I see a lot of similarities. The women in the yaoi fandom write v disturbing & sexually violent relationships between the seme (dominant) and uke (submissive). I know there is a lot of crossover w anime & other fandoms, I wonder about this. It's a bit like disturbing Japanese porn warping stuff for men.

GallantKumquat · 08/06/2025 16:53

@murasaki Fawning reviews on Points of View. No criticism apart from 'not enough diversity of body types'.

So, working backwards: it would be nice for the show to present a variety of body types to emphasize that all bodies are beautify and encourage people to be comfortable in their own bodies. And yet one of the show's 'winners' was a female whose gender (body) dysphoria resulted in her choosing to have her breasts amputated. And that not only allowed her to appear shirtless on the show, but was presumably a prerequisite for getting the slot as the token heterosexual, trans identifying female. 😳

murasaki · 08/06/2025 17:07

GallantKumquat · 08/06/2025 16:53

@murasaki Fawning reviews on Points of View. No criticism apart from 'not enough diversity of body types'.

So, working backwards: it would be nice for the show to present a variety of body types to emphasize that all bodies are beautify and encourage people to be comfortable in their own bodies. And yet one of the show's 'winners' was a female whose gender (body) dysphoria resulted in her choosing to have her breasts amputated. And that not only allowed her to appear shirtless on the show, but was presumably a prerequisite for getting the slot as the token heterosexual, trans identifying female. 😳

Oh i agree, they definitely could have had different body shapes, but these shows never do, look at Love Island. That is a problem.

But there was one diverse candidate....

KnottyAuty · 08/06/2025 18:40

GallantKumquat · 08/06/2025 16:53

@murasaki Fawning reviews on Points of View. No criticism apart from 'not enough diversity of body types'.

So, working backwards: it would be nice for the show to present a variety of body types to emphasize that all bodies are beautify and encourage people to be comfortable in their own bodies. And yet one of the show's 'winners' was a female whose gender (body) dysphoria resulted in her choosing to have her breasts amputated. And that not only allowed her to appear shirtless on the show, but was presumably a prerequisite for getting the slot as the token heterosexual, trans identifying female. 😳

THIS! The European court deemed that it was unlawful to require surgery so that a trans person could get a GRC.... so for Season 3: at least 3 trans men alongside 7 gay men, and at least one should be fully intact (no surgery). Bring on the points of view after that....

AliasGrace47 · 08/06/2025 19:12

Hmmm..interesting point. I agree somewhat about hetero female POV being similar to lesbian, but I would argue that while the main plot might go in a similar way, the dynamics of 2 women would intrinsically make the dynamics & hence perhaps plot somewhat different. I haven't seen Kissing Jessica Stein but would like to. Doesn't she leave her girlfriend for a man at the end? I'm bi myself but this put me off a bit, too many older lesbian films end like that

TempestTost · 09/06/2025 00:16

AliasGrace47 · 08/06/2025 02:41

Hmm...when you say most YA fiction is smut, dp you mean solely about sex, or that it's poorly written romance? Twilight, or newer romantasy like Sarah J Maas or Rebecca Yaros does feature sex scenes but also a fantasy plot. The sex scenes are not the center piece, but the romance is. But is romance smut? I would call smut a story that's mostly sex.

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I think I said about half.

I don't think having a story, or not, is that relevant.

Back when Playgirl was a thing, I saw an interview with one of the editors (I think or maybe a writer) who said the differernce with trying to create pornography for women was it had to have a story. Men just liked a nudie picture, but for women, there had to be some kind of narrative they could build around the image.

I wouldn't consider Twilight smut, it's just low end teen writing. 50 Shades is, and so is Sarah J Maas.

JazzyJelly · 10/06/2025 00:15

Unexpected that they have the homosexual man rejecting a female person. ' I put in my heart into him'. I honestly thought they'd pretend that people can change sexuality.

42petunia · 10/06/2025 18:54

Just binged the whole of IKABS2 in one day and loved it! Loved Lars! He is amazing and really brave to be the 1st trans man on a gay dating show :)

I don’t agree with comments that it’s not fair on the other gay men to have a trans man on the show. The men choose who they partner with for most of the show, and Lars was very bravely open about being trans from the start anyway.

Jack who he was matched with at the beginning had already said he was open to a trans man… I’m sure Jack was honoured to be a part of this moment in history.

Clearly it wasn’t an issue for the others, as one of the other guys partnered up with Lars for the remainder of the show.

OuterSpaceCadet · 10/06/2025 19:04

Brave, yes. But not sure that coercing gay men to pretend they do pussy on TV is quite the historical moment I'd want to celebrate.

42petunia · 10/06/2025 19:16

OuterSpaceCadet · 10/06/2025 19:04

Brave, yes. But not sure that coercing gay men to pretend they do pussy on TV is quite the historical moment I'd want to celebrate.

No one was coerced into doing anything - and no one was forced into pretending anything - have you watched the show?

HaddyAbrams · 10/06/2025 19:34

JazzyJelly · 10/06/2025 00:15

Unexpected that they have the homosexual man rejecting a female person. ' I put in my heart into him'. I honestly thought they'd pretend that people can change sexuality.

I thought Lars rejected the other man at the end? So it was the transman rejecting the homosexual man?

KnottyAuty · 10/06/2025 20:12

It was a surprising twist but after the editors started ramping up the drama towards the end it seemed clear that one of them wouldn’t turn.

Maybe we will find out more about why on the reunion show?

Lars seemed nice and seemed to get on well with the group but latterly he didn’t get much camera time unless Reuben was there. There were a lot of big personalities competing for the limelight. I think Lars should get the chance to go on a dating show to meet a man like anyone else might, but I still don’t think they should call it a gay show; that word already has a meaning.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 10/06/2025 20:29

42petunia · 10/06/2025 18:54

Just binged the whole of IKABS2 in one day and loved it! Loved Lars! He is amazing and really brave to be the 1st trans man on a gay dating show :)

I don’t agree with comments that it’s not fair on the other gay men to have a trans man on the show. The men choose who they partner with for most of the show, and Lars was very bravely open about being trans from the start anyway.

Jack who he was matched with at the beginning had already said he was open to a trans man… I’m sure Jack was honoured to be a part of this moment in history.

Clearly it wasn’t an issue for the others, as one of the other guys partnered up with Lars for the remainder of the show.

‘Honoured’

righty ho then

42petunia · 10/06/2025 21:22

KnottyAuty · 10/06/2025 20:12

It was a surprising twist but after the editors started ramping up the drama towards the end it seemed clear that one of them wouldn’t turn.

Maybe we will find out more about why on the reunion show?

Lars seemed nice and seemed to get on well with the group but latterly he didn’t get much camera time unless Reuben was there. There were a lot of big personalities competing for the limelight. I think Lars should get the chance to go on a dating show to meet a man like anyone else might, but I still don’t think they should call it a gay show; that word already has a meaning.

I agree that Lars didn’t get much camera time unless Reuben was there - but he has a quite a shy personality. Reuben got more camera time than everyone else IMO.

Regarding whether or not it should be referred to as a gay dating show, both trans men, and cis men, can have a preference for dating men (instead of women), therefore both can be gay. So it is fine to call it a gay dating show.

Sexual orientation (who you are attracted to) is completely unrelated to gender identity (who you are). You can be trans and gay, trans and straight, trans and bi, ace, or anything else – just like a cis person can be.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 10/06/2025 21:25

Yeah, but if you’re a man who wants to shag women (even women role playing as men), then you ain’t gay

gay men have dealt with rather a lot of being told they just haven’t found the right woman yet over the years. They don’t need the BBC getting in on the action