Trans History Week and Germany 1933

[HappyNewTaxYear]

https://www.itv.com/watch/news/trans-history-week-celebrated-in-the-shadow-of-supreme-court-ruling/vw998s8

What is this thing that was alleged to have happened on 6 May 1933 in Germany that ‘Arlo’ here is talking about? A ‘trans clinic’? Were there such things in 1933? Grateful if anyone can shed any light.

Did they destroy the records of the people who weren’t actually categorised and who didn’t officially exist? Because if they didn’t officially exist there wouldn’t have been any records to be destroyed would there?

Yeah I'm not the one trying to mock the testament of the Museum of Jewish Heritage.

In China they would call it "pointing at a deer and calling it a horse".

😂😂 oh goodness me you’re reaching now!! I really must make a new bingo card from this thread, it may come in handy in future.

No, you’re the one scolding women for not believing things that you insist are true, but have no reliable sources whatsoever to back up your specious claims. Do you think that anything you’re saying is original? It’s just regurgitated falsehoods from Reddit.

You know there was no legal categorisation for trans people at that time right? They were targeted through public order offences or mental illness categories.

this is surely the key point- there was no legal categorisation of 'trans people' because there was no concept of 'trans people'
there was a concept of homosexual people and a concept of sexual deviance but not of transgender identity as proposed today (and for the last decade or so)

its not like the nazis were thinking 'shit we forgot to make laws banning the people who were born in the wrong body, what can we do? how can we get rid of them? I know, here's an idea, lets just say they were homosexual, that will do, they kind of are anyway.OK?'

I am reminded of a conversation I had with someone from the middle east, I think Egyptian, and I was trying to find out if there was a different view (legally) of gay people and transgender people but I was told this was impossible to discuss because the same word covered both categories

I have no idea if that was inaccurate but it doesn't surprise me because after all thats what has happened here with the forced teaming LGB+T

Wow what a discussion. I now have a better understanding as to why, GC beliefs are claimed to be akin to being a nazi sympathiser by the erm righteous.

I do not doubt that all sorts of “deviants” and undesirables were murdered during the holocaust but the primary target were Jews,

LEST WE FORGET

Correct me if i am wrong i think it was about 6 million.

The T people are not really helping themselves jumping on the death camp bandwagon.

Quite offensive actually.

.

And they sought them from the doctors who would later go on to work in the concentration camps and carry out other experiments.

There are clear links with fascism, extremism etc and transgenderism.

They all see "sex changes" as a cure for homosexuality. Apartheid South Africa promoted this, Iran (to this day) promotes this.

This quote refers to transsexuals, not transgender people.

Not the same thing. It's one thing to dress up as the opposite sex, it's quite another thing to claim to be the opposite sex.

On the subject of alleged denials that transgender people exist - of course the people exist, it's the label of 'transgender' that has no factual basis, given that human beings are either male or female, and you can't swap between the two.

I believe that all sorts of people exist - astrologers exist, that anti-vaxxers exist, that people who think one or all of the moon landings were faked exist. I just don't accept that what they believe is true, but thankfully astrologers, anti-vaxxers and people who think one or all of the moon landings were faked don't aggressively demand that language, the law, education, the media, medicine etc must change to go along with their unproven beliefs.

Why is disagreement on here always seen as "scolding?"
Is it usuallyreally that much of an echo chamber on here you can't bear to hear different opinions and feel all "told off?"

Yes, I went over this link, too:
https://nrwe.justiz.nrw.de/olgs/koeln/j2023/15_U_208_22_Beschluss_20230120.html

It is a very, very, very extensive consideration of context, after Ms Vollbrecht complained about a "narrative". The court went over how she was framed as anti-trans after the event at the university in Berlin, where the university had to backtrack (after supporting the view that there are more than two sexes, coming from a renowned research university; and had tried to ruin her reputation).

The court also points out that TRA already had her in their sights and were just looking for something they could sue about, and that, given Ms Vollbrechts education as biologist and her conduct as a citizen (democratic, not a holochaust denier or anything), it was clear she wasn't denying that individual trans people could have been targeted by the Nazis, but the narrative and the framing of transvestites as separate group targetted, comparable to Jewish people (if I got that right, she wasn't denying either that transvestites, crossdressers and others existed).
The court even points out that official free material by an education institution financed by the state (as @Igneococcus said), agrees with Ms Vollbrecht's perspective (line 14 in the judgement).

This court case debate is perhaps comparable to that "most oppressed minority" story from current times.

The conclusion from the court is that TRA are permitted to say that she denied something, but it is not permitted for everyone outside of the debate Vollbrecht vs TRA to claim denial after her tweet - because even the state of Germany agrees that they were not an equal "target" group compared to others - which does not seem a very logical conclusion but it seems the court tried to look at the problem from all angles and finally found one where she was wrong.

However, this is not a very clear cut simple court decision saying she was outright wrong.

I second that request. No matter how well these supposed trans people hid themselves ,if they were captured by the Nazis then there would be a paper trail somewhere. Nazis were meticulous record keepers. A man's name would be on papers showing when and where he was arrested, what transport he was put on, what camp he arrived at, and his death notice if he did not survive.
Then there were witnesses to his arrest, family members searching for him, people he encountered on transports and in camps -there were huge efforts to track missing people down after the war.
Strange that there is no record of people who thought they were the opposite sex.Also strange that there are no survivors to tell their story.

Sounds like if she'd stuck to asking them to name one of these victims, the witch hunt would have failed.

Yes, so some transsexuals were victims of the Nazis….

You cannot extend that to a general claim that “transgender people” were targeted. Lots of people were victims of the Nazi’s without being one of the specific targeted groups.

As many others have pointed out to you, the concept of transgender didn't exist at that time. So yes, it makes perfect sense that they would have been "given a free pass", as you put it.

It's genuinely astonishing that you think, "it makes sense that trans people would also have been persecuted because trans people are always persecuted" is good enough evidence to say that they were.

Not everything has to centre trans people, and the Holocaust is one of the many things that doesn't.

At this point it's starting to sound as offensive and egotistical as Justin Bieber writing, "I'm sure she would have been a Belieber" in the guest book at the Anne Frank museum.

I’m confused. I thought trans people nearly always passed so well that no one could tell they were trans and “you’d never know if you were meeting a trans person”. In that case, how could the Nazis target trans people if they didn’t know they were trans?

It’s pretty clear that accusing us of ‘denialism’ and refusing to believe that trans people were ‘targeted by the Nazis’ is a little more than a difference of opinion, you and @suggestionsplease1 only come here to scold and you know it.

Oh but they burnt ‘all the records’ apparently 🙄 all of the records to do with the trans people who they have admitted weren’t categorised as such and therefore weren’t recorded because they didn’t exist. But they still burnt all the records of these non existent people. Someone please make it make sense!

But they didn't burn the records of their other victims because...?

.

They were meticulous record keepers that were unrepentantly proud of what they did and wanted to record it for posterity. But,... BUT - when it came to 'trans people', they.... gasp .... BURNT all the records.

Yeah, NAH!

Because trans people are THE most victimised group in the whole world ever, you silly goose, when will you accept that?! Even before they existed they were victims of genocide and literal violence 🙄

They attempted to burn some records that established which senior people knew and did stuff, and who the high ranked collaborators in other countries were.

They didn't attempt to burn the records that showed who they killed and imprisoned - why would they, they didn't care about them.

There's a lot of paperwork generated by any government or military bureaucracy, and the Nazis were champions of creating paperwork. That's why Jewish orgs have been so successful in identifying victims.

To the extent that there's doubt about Jewish deaths, that's due to (a) massacres by the Einsatzgruppen on the Soviet front, or (b) massacres by collaborationist groups in places like Lithuania or Ukraine. But the Holocaust was basically a very bureacratic genocide with tons of paperwork involved.

When you've got a regime as obsessed with paperwork as the Nazis, I'm afraid absence of evidence really does suggest evidence of absence, and we can't get around that by hallucinating that the regime persecuted trans people but, uniquely, there aren't any surviving records of this.