Trans History Week and Germany 1933

[HappyNewTaxYear]

https://www.itv.com/watch/news/trans-history-week-celebrated-in-the-shadow-of-supreme-court-ruling/vw998s8

What is this thing that was alleged to have happened on 6 May 1933 in Germany that ‘Arlo’ here is talking about? A ‘trans clinic’? Were there such things in 1933? Grateful if anyone can shed any light.

Paper quoted above is from:

Laurie Marhoefer is the Jon Bridgman Endowed Professor of History at the University of Washington. He is the author of Sex and the Weimar Republic: German Homosexual Emancipation and the Rise of the Nazis (University of
Toronto Press, 2015), a study of queer politics and Germany’s first democracy, and of Racism and the Making of Gay Rights: A Sexologist, His Student, and the Empire of Queer Love (University of Toronto Press, 2022), a double biography
of Magnus Hirschfeld and Li Shiu Tong

Given that you have yourself scolded us about our lack of knowledge, please do tell us the names of the trans people you say you KNOW were targeted victims of the holocaust, because the only way you can be sure that they existed is if you’ve seen evidence which would surely include their names. Why so reticent all of a sudden?

'In 1933, Hamburg officials wrote, “Police officials are requested to observe the transvestites, in particular, and as required to send them to concentration camps.

Looking for possible homosexuals, I assume?

Thanks for finally providing something concrete - clearly little chance of it from our friend.

It says in dem diesem Post vorausgehenden Artikel wird nicht behauptet, dass eine systematische Verfolgung von Transpersonen in der NS-Zeit erfolgt sei, sondern dass in dieser Zeit ein Zustand der Vermischung von Schwul und Trans* als perverse Krankheit zu finden gewesen sei. Transmenschen, insbesondere Transfrauen, die auch Sex mit Männern gehabt hätten oder in den Verdacht geraten seien, solchen zu haben, seien ebenso wie Homosexuelle einer Stigmatisierung, Diskriminierung, Verfolgung und Ermordung in Konzentrationslagern ausgesetzt gewesen und Transfrauen, die keinen Sex mit Männern gehabt hätten, aber die sich in der Öffentlichkeit irgendwie auffällig verhalten hätten, seien als "asozial" eingestuft worden.

In other words, there was no concept of 'trans'. Men who had sex with other men, whether or not they dressed as women, were persecuted. Men who didn't have sex with other men, but cross-dressed in public, could be marked as 'anti-social'. It remains true that the Nazi regime didn't consciously target 'trans' people. There is also little proof that male transvestites actually believed themselves to female. Many transvestites today don't believe that.

That’s an awful lot of words to say that you can’t, thanks for finally admitting that.

It's not "absolute" specious twaddle" though.
I've definitely seen people on this board say "there's no such thing as trans."
Just because you haven't seen it (or are pretending you haven't, who knows) doesn't mean it's "twaddle." 🙄

There were people in Germany at that time who sought surgical processes and hormones to align their bodies with their gender identity. There may not have been the word transgender, there may not have been a legal recognition of this a term, but these people would have matched our present day understanding of a transgender person.

No legal categorisation you say? So officially these people didn’t exist, but you know that they did and you know that they were targeted. How do you know that? Presumably you weren’t there.

Evidence to support this please.

It really is fairly simple. We're talking about transvestites. The Nazis persecuted homosexual transvestites because they were homosexual.

The Nazis didn't persecute heterosexual transvestites as a matter of policy, though they might have had a tough time if the authorities thought they were creating a public nuisance.

What we've got here is taking Nazi persecution of homosexual transvestites, mashing it up with the handful of transsexual people who had experimental surgeries at Hirschfeld's institute, and using that to ahistorically take the idea of a transgender identity and community which is barely 10 years old and project it back through time to foreground the modern identity among the Nazis' victims.

It's like saying goths and emo kids were victims of the Holocaust.

Just because there was no official "word" to describe trans people, doesn't mean they didn't exist back then!!
As the pp said, they'll have been flying under the radar so to speak.
Denying that they were targeted or must have just been gay instead or whatever is pretty nauseating, it is a form of holocaust denial.
Least people don't hide shit like this as much now on here I suppose, it seems to have moved on from "we just have valid concerns" and it's easier for people to see it for what it is.

There were people in Germany at that time who sought surgical processes and hormones to align their bodies with their gender identity. There may not have been the word transgender, there may not have been a legal recognition of this a term, but these people would have matched our present day understanding of a transgender person.

Are you on ChatGPT again? That's a reply to the post you quoted, but it's totally forgotten your previous post that was responding to. Which was 'why would they have not been targeted?'

If only lots of books and stuff hadn't been burned, hey.

https://magnus-hirschfeld.de/ausstellungen/institute/

The denialism is strong on this thread eh! 😆

The Nazis didn't burn their own records.

https://hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/nazi-persecution/

Haha are you for real?! Of course they destroyed their records when they realised the war was lost.

Some maybe, but there are significant records available and in various archives. I have copies of those relating to my grandfather.

This, all day long ⬆️

They weren't very good at it since almost all of their records survived, then, were they.

I know, but if you were to seek help you could overcome it.

And while I have your attention, that court case that you link to does not rule on what you claim it rules on. It rules on what is acceptable as free speech. It even quotes the article that caused the case saying that there was no "systematische Verfolgung for Transpersonen". Such a pity you don't read German and have to rely on what other TRAs tell you it says.

We’re all confused. It’s the core of their ‘belief system’ though isn’t it? We’re all supposed to unquestioningly believe everything they say, even if it is so obviously false, even if it is to our detriment and even if factually it cannot possibly be true.

Court statement:

"The plaintiff's aforementioned statement can be interpreted as a denial of Nazi crimes. The private expert report submitted by the plaintiff by Dr. B1 A, a research associate at the GC Institute, also concludes that it is incorrect to claim that transsexuals were not victims during the Nazi era....
.....
"...Thus, even according to the plaintiff's own statements, transsexuals cannot generally be denied victim status during the Nazi era."