Trans History Week and Germany 1933

[HappyNewTaxYear]

https://www.itv.com/watch/news/trans-history-week-celebrated-in-the-shadow-of-supreme-court-ruling/vw998s8

What is this thing that was alleged to have happened on 6 May 1933 in Germany that ‘Arlo’ here is talking about? A ‘trans clinic’? Were there such things in 1933? Grateful if anyone can shed any light.

' the main argument put forward on this forum is "There is no such thing as a trans person" '

Absolute specious twaddle.

Translation from the link suggestionsplease posted (I've just copy-pasted, and I've not changed or corrected anything, any translation errors or oddities are likely down to the google translate function):

'Expression of the opinion is also based on a sufficient factual figure. One is one with the statement, “I hate this narrative. It ridges the true victims of the Nazi crimes in response to an article that deals with the topic of “Transdependence/Transsexuality in National Socialism”. The statement is to be understood as to the fact that transsexual people are not victims of Nazi crimes. Because if a group of people is faced with the group of “true victims”, this means that this group of people wrongly appropriates a victim status and is not a victim. The appellant does not simply express the fact that she denies a systematic persecution of transsexuals during the Nazi era, but that there was no Nazi crimes at the expense of transsexual people. For in the article preceding this post it is not claimed that a systematic persecution of trans persons in the Nazi era has taken place, but that during this time a state of mixing of ga and trans* as a perverse disease was to be found. Transpeople, especially trans women, who had also had sex with men or were suspected of having them, were exposed to stigmatisation, discrimination, persecution and murder in concentration camps, and transies who had no sex with men, but who had somehow conspicuously behaved in public, were classified as "asocial".
37
There is no fact that there is no fact that she had suffered from opinion and declared minutes at the oral hearing that she had never denied transsexual victims of the Nazi regime and declared records during the oral hearing that she had never denied the victim status of trans persons under National Socialism. These subsequent explanations change the understanding of the statement at the time when it was made, however, and do not allow it to be abolished as a basis.
38
The aforementioned statement by the appellant can be assessed as a denial of Nazi crimes. Because also from the private expert report of Dr. B1 A, a research assistant at the G-C Institute, it follows that it is not true that transsexuals were not victims during the Nazi era. This states, among other things, that the authorities could prosecute transvestites when their appearance aroused offense in the public, for example because crowds of people felt harassed or third parties felt harassed. Furthermore, it follows from his report that in a few individual cases concentration camp instructions are also documented on the basis of trans-vestiteism. Thus, even after the meeting of the plaintiff's own statements, transsexuals cannot be generally denied victim status in the Nazi era.'

Then they observe that we deal in facts and not hyperbole, that we think the law should be predicated on biological reality and how that materially affects women and girls.

They will also observe that listening to organisations like Stonewall is pointless as they wilfully misrepresent the law.

They will also observe that people can’t change their natal sex, that sex is immutable and binary, and that GI is an insidious, misogynistic, homophobic, regressive ideology that is harmful to women and girls and involves experimentation on vulnerable young people.

This list is obviously not exhaustive. HTH.

Lots of people commented on my post, and not a single one of them told me that I don't exist, or that I'm not trans.

With ref to the German court case, here’s a report from an academic who provided an expert statement.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/0779A24B130C4F0CA64DB639FA6DBF46/S0008938923000468a.pdf/transgender_life_and_persecution_under_the_nazi_state_gutachten_on_the_vollbrecht_case.pdf

Seems like it was all mixed up with transvestism, race and homosexuality, but men who identified as women were likely treated more harshly.

Or Sandie Peggie?

Trans activists also frequently use the phrase "trans genocide", apparently unironically.

Since we all know perfectly well there is no trans genocide happening today, are we supposed to believe the same people when they tell us a trans genocide happened 85 years ago?

That’s untrue and incredibly simplistic reasoning. The posts on this forum are very far from that standard of rhetoric.

Are you confusing us with the authors of this kind of argument? “Repeat after us Trans Women are WOMEN.” #nodebate

To return to Malcolm's thread, Pink News may have failed to identify any trans victims who weren't Jewish and/or gay, but that doesn't mean there weren't any.

I'd guess the number of transsexual people in Germany in 1933 was in the single figures, but the Nazi regime was pretty intolerant of people who were classed as misfits or troublemakers, even if they weren't in a target group. And such a tiny subset of people was very unlikely to have been singled out as a group, but it's quite likely some people in the group could have fallen foul of the regime.

And if such can be found they deserve to be remembered.

But this reminds me a bit of Helmuth Hübener, a 17-year-old boy executed in Hamburg in 1942 as an enemy of the state. Helmuth and two of his friends, fellow members of the Mormon church, had been active in anti-Nazi pamphleteering. They didn't get any support from local church leadership, some of whom were pro-Nazi and most of whom were just keeping their heads down and trying to stay alive in the knowledge that their American connections could make them targets.

Following the war, the LDS church recognised Helmuth Hübener as a martyr and posthumously ordained him as an elder. His story has become pretty well known in Mormon circles, and LDS artists and writers return to it quite often. This is good. It's an important story to know.

But what the TQ+ community is doing is the equivalent of taking the Helmuth Hübener story and saying "Hitler comes to power: Mormons targeted for persecution", which just wouldn't be true.

If this was true, then you must recognise the scenario that one of the top surgeons who performed sex change surgeries must have then met his patients in the concentration camps where he was performing more experiments.

Fascinating and incorrect.

No reference you say? I am all astonishment.

I forgot to add that out of the five names Pink News came up with, not only were they all either Jewish or gay, but only a couple of them were actually killed by the Nazis.

the main argument put forward on this forum is "There is no such thing as a trans person"
Define trans person first please. Some people think it means changing sex which we all know is impossible as nobody has ever managed it yet.

clear picture of persecution of trans people in Nazi Germany.
Again, define trans for this statement. Nazi Germany had loads of transvestites (cross dressers) and we know this because of photographic evidence, although I doubt any were persecuted for it as the photos were mainly of the nazi soldiers themselves.

There was no triangle badge for 'transgender people' in the camps, though attempts have been made to claim the pink triangle used for gay men covered cross-dressing - no examples have been found - and the Nazis documented everything, there was no shame about the camps and the extermination programmes.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badge

There was also no shame about the enthusiastic cross-dressing by Nazi soldiers off duty.

nationalpost.com/news/cross-dressing-nazis-a-german-artist-found-so-many-photos-of-them-he-published-a-book-about-it

No reference you say? I am all astonishment.

We did get a link afterwards. The case was Vollbrecht suing someone for calling her a Holocaust denier. She lost that case - she had a very big "freedom of speech" bar to clear there. The court said that both her statements and people calling her a "holocaust denier" were legal, which sounds right to me.

Going back to the first link, I'm struck by this quote in it.

Vollbrecht asserted that to discuss trans victims of Nazism is to “mock” other (that is, cisgender) victims of Nazi violence. She used the term mock, which I take to be a gesture toward the old anti-trans trope of trans people as ridiculous, objects of scornful laughter. Trans people, Vollbrecht suggested in her tweet, are ridiculous.

This sort of non-sequitur (faux?) reading comprehension problem is very common among a certain circle, I've found.

For activists it is important to spread the myth of trans people being targeted by the Nazis for a few reasons:

• There is a persistent claim that trans people have always existed. If anything this just serves as an erasure of gender-nonconfirming people. Why are you denying gender non-confirming existence?
• It creates the myth of a community and a defined group that were recognised and targeted 80 years ago.
• It also creates the myth that the "trans" identity was recognised 80 years ago. The term "trangender" didn't really exist until about a decade ago. Transsexual was widely known until the 1960's.
• It creates the myth of continued persecution.
• Trans activists always have to frame everything around trans. Even the Ukraine war has focused on "apparent transphobia". The BBC even did an article about how climate change affects trans people more.

Great post @TheCatsTongue Really informative.

This is an excellent point and very apt comparison.

I wonder what trans activists think their post-truth approach will bring? The people who nod along are likely those who already took the leap of faith required to believe in gendered souls. I think the unintended consequence could be that of discrediting holocaust histories and ultimately fueling Holocaust denial.

It's very distasteful how TRAs try to centre trans people in the Holocaust. In the 1930s and 1940s, there was no concept of 'transgender' as it exists now. The Nazis targeted homosexual men, but had some limited tolerance for cross-dressing, as long as it wasn't linked to sexual orientation. Hirschfeld's research institute was attacked mainly because he was Jewish. Although modern TRAs claim it was dedicated to transsexualism, it had a much broader focus.

Also - when Hirschfeld's books were burnt, they weren't the only ones on the pyre. Books by other Jewish writers and by pacifists, taken from other places, were also destroyed in the same incident at the Opernplatz.

Yes, I worry about this too.

I feel like the laws against Holocaust denial in Germany have been weaponised to shoehorn in trans people retrospectively despite the lack of any compelling evidence, and the likely outcome is that when it becomes apparent that supposedly respectable people and organisations have been endorsing this rewriting of history, some people will use this as an excuse to deny the very real atrocities that were committed against other groups, such as gay men. (I feel like the scale of the persecution of Jewish people is probably such that no one could seriously deny that happened, but who knows?)

So the laws against Holocaust denial, when misused by the trans rights lobby, could in fact lead to more Holocaust denial.

What exactly is post-truth about pointing out that a German court ruled that transgender people were victims during the Nazi era?

https://nrwe.justiz.nrw.de/lgs/koeln/lg_koeln/j2022/28_O_252_22_Urteil_20221109.html

“(I feel like the scale of the persecution of Jewish people is probably such that no one could seriously deny that happened, but who knows?)”

I no longer have any faith that reality will not be denied by people who appear to have mental capacity given the events of the last decade.

Did the German court name any of these trans victims?

Is the German court in the same Germany that doesn't currently believe female people exist or have sex based rights?

(The second question was rhetorical.)

You are really showing yourself up eh. Knock yourself out!