Trans History Week and Germany 1933

[HappyNewTaxYear]

https://www.itv.com/watch/news/trans-history-week-celebrated-in-the-shadow-of-supreme-court-ruling/vw998s8

What is this thing that was alleged to have happened on 6 May 1933 in Germany that ‘Arlo’ here is talking about? A ‘trans clinic’? Were there such things in 1933? Grateful if anyone can shed any light.

The Regional Court of Cologne (Landgericht Köln) recognized the persecution of transgender people under the Nazi regime in a landmark ruling issued on 9 November 2022. This decision marked the first time a German court formally acknowledged that transgender individuals were victims of Nazi persecution. Cambridge University Press & Assessment
The case involved biologist Marie-Luise Vollbrecht, who filed a civil defamation lawsuit against the German Society for Trans Identity and Intersexuality (dgti). The dispute centered around comments made by Vollbrecht, suggesting that transgender people were not "true victims" of Nazi crimes. The court ruled against Vollbrecht, affirming that denying the persecution of transgender individuals during the Nazi era constitutes a denial of Nazi crimes—a serious offense under German law. Wikipedia+1Cambridge University Press & Assessment+1
This ruling is significant as it legally recognizes the historical suffering of transgender people under the Nazi regime, a subject that has often been overlooked. The court's decision contributes to a broader understanding of the diverse groups targeted by Nazi persecution and underscores the importance of acknowledging all victims to ensure comprehensive historical justice.
For those interested in the detailed legal reasoning, the court's decision is publicly available under case number 28 O 252/22 from the Landgericht Köln.

Oops I am going to get told off now by the Scold.

We’re thinking that the stuff you post isn’t from reliable sources and rewriting history isn’t factual. There are some highly academically qualified people who believe people can change sex, it doesn’t make them any less wrong.

That's fine, most of Mumsnet is reading the denialism and making parallels to other denials of Nazi atrocities and getting a solid idea of the general tone of this board.

Any chance you can source this in the original language @suggestionsplease1 There are some super smart Frauen around here who can pull apart a text in every language imaginable in a matter of seconds.
TIA

What are they thinking when they read about the denial of the persecution of trans people in Nazi Germany, which is testified to in museums in Germany and beyond, and recognised by German courts?

A regional court ruled in a libel case that the claimant has to accept being called adenialist. It's a bit disingenuous to claim that this one judgement carries a lot of weight as to historical truth
For what it's worth, I've gone through the entire German education system taking history all the way up to Abitur and you really learn every detail of Germany's Nazi past and weirdly trans people never got a mention. Many nazis were quite fond of crossdressing and it didn't seem to have harmed their careers.

The most marginalised group EVER.

With a history going as far back as circa 2010

I mean I would love to believe that German courts are great arbiters of historical truth, but recently the German courts have been very busy fining citizens for anti-democratic fascist crimes like... um... tweeting the poo emoji at Green Party leaders.

So if we're going to stand on a ruling of the Cologne district court, I'd like to do some primary source reading first, instead of taking anyone's word for it.

Is it though? 🤔

Ah suggestions is here, any chance of a comment on the Darlington nurses case? I expect not somehow

This is fascinating. Thank you!

This neo-nazi now identifies as a woman.

https://www.mz.de/lokal/halle-saale/rechtsextremist-liebich-ist-jetzt-eine-frau-das-ist-der-neue-name-3981470

https://www.bild.de/regional/sachsen-anhalt/rechtsextremist-wechselt-geschlecht-neonazi-sven-jetzt-marla-svenja-678689f9e1c7ef2d914c9da3

So if we're going to stand on a ruling of the Cologne district court, I'd like to do some primary source reading first, instead of taking anyone's word for it.

I can't actually find any reference to the finding against her that the link above is referring to. Note that the link above is from a trans activist expert witness, and it has no references for that statement.

She later won a case against the university.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-LuiseVollbrecht

Google translate:

In a press release, Humboldt University Berlin explained the cancellation of Vollbrecht's lecture and distanced itself from it. In doing so, it (the university) had wrongly created the impression that Vollbrecht's opinions "were operating outside the university's mission statement and values." This distancing and the associated assessment were declared unlawful by the Berlin Administrative Court in December 2023.[21] It lacked a sound factual basis. Therefore, it prohibited Humboldt University Berlin from further disseminating parts of this press release.[22] The university did not file an appeal. Jost Müller-Neuhof criticized Humboldt University Berlin in the Tagesspiegel for not having apologized to Vollbrecht.[23]

No reference to the "landmark November 2022 ruling" on her Wikipedia page that I can see.

https://cne.news/article/3976-conservative-biologist-wins-court-case-over-gender-view

'The Berlin Administrative Court has now ruled that the University may no longer distribute these parts of the press release, which it considered derogatory statements towards Marie Vollbrecht. '

https://nrwe.justiz.nrw.de/lgs/koeln/lg_koeln/j2022/28_O_252_22_Urteil_20221109.html

Well assuming they have a brain, I would imagine they are wondering who these trans Holocaust victims actually are.

Interview with Marie Vollbrecht for a feminist youtube channel. (I haven't watched it).

it is worth also noting for those saying that this is a rewrite of history, that it was also only in the 1980s that gay people and gypsies were also formally recognised as having been targets of the Nazism. That is to say that, groups that have been historically oppressed and who are/were marginalised, take longer for recognition of historical atrocities that occurred to them to come about.

That is absolutely not true.

Is 'non-matter people' a translation of 'non binary'?

The Regional Court of Cologne (Landgericht Köln) recognized the persecution...

Just want to highlight that this text is not actually from the page linked - it's generated by ChatGPT, as you can see in the links.

It obviously wasn't written by suggestionsplease1, but don't assume the stuff he hasn't written is from real sources.

I’m glad you mentioned parallels.

This is very informative about how language was used to both dehumanise and vilify Jews and the other groups tagged as less than human.

The strategies used seem very familiar, just can’t put my finger on it.

https://english.elpais.com/society/2022-12-04/how-nazi-propaganda-dehumanized-jews-to-facilitate-the-holocaust.html

They have brains enough to see that the main argument put forward on this forum is "There is no such thing as a trans person" and that it is then a simple step to say "Trans people were never persecuted in Naxi Germany".

Thankfully I am sure they are all capable of their own research showing the very clear picture of persecution of trans people in Nazi Germany.

If they have spent any time here at all they will be well aware that nobody is claiming there is no such thing as a trans person.

They'll also no doubt have seen the ridiculous hyperbole from trans activists and be inclined to take everything they say with a pinch of salt.

Thankfully I am sure they are all capable of their own research showing the very clear picture of persecution of trans people in Nazi Germany.

"Very clear picture", but no names?

We're still waiting for even the first non-Jewish non-gay "trans" victim.

Come on, you must have at least one, surely?

(I actually would be somewhat surprised if you can't come up with one - surely the activists have managed to find someone, even if it's rather tenuous like wothisname at the Stonewall riots? Or is it so tenuous it's too embarrassing to start a discussion on?)