Trans History Week and Germany 1933

[HappyNewTaxYear]

https://www.itv.com/watch/news/trans-history-week-celebrated-in-the-shadow-of-supreme-court-ruling/vw998s8

What is this thing that was alleged to have happened on 6 May 1933 in Germany that ‘Arlo’ here is talking about? A ‘trans clinic’? Were there such things in 1933? Grateful if anyone can shed any light.

You can feel free to name some of these victims yourself if you like.

See if you can do a better job than Pink News.

Courts often get it wrong.

NAME these transgender victims, please. Even two. It should be easy, as the names of Jewish victims and gay victims exist in the public record.

So go on! Put up or shut up as it were. Give the names of even just two of them. If you can't, we know why.

For crying out loud. The existence of something occuring does not depend on an ability to identify a name.

Can you tell me the name of a woman who was murdered by her husband in the 8th century? If you can't does that mean it never happened?

If you can only tell me 2, does that mean that they were the only 2 in that period who were murdered by their husbands, and no other woman was?

Transgender people in Nazi Germany lived hidden lives under the radar as far as possible to try to escape persecution. They changed names, they were disowned by families, they did everything they could to avoid being publicly identified. Is it any surprise we're not going to generate a long list of identifiable names? That does not mean their persecution did not happen, and this is testified to in court and in museums in Germany and worldwide.

Denn in dem diesem Post vorausgehenden Artikel wird nicht behauptet, dass eine systematische Verfolgung von Transpersonen in der NS-Zeit erfolgt sei, sondern dass in dieser Zeit ein Zustand der Vermischung von Schwul und Trans als perverse Krankheit zu finden gewesen sei.*

I think this is the important sentence in suggestion's link which translates (badly) as follows:
In the article that the post (by the claimant in the libel case which is the reason for this trial) responds to there isn't a claim that there was systematic persecution of trans people during NS times but that during this time there could be found a state of mix up of homosexuality (schwul) and trans as a perverse disease.

So even the article in question that is at the base of this doesn't claim there was systematic persecution of trans people.

If you can't, we know why.

Cos the Nazis hated bureaucracy and paperwork?

Maybe it's that they were persecuting transgender people so much, they didn't dare make any records, unlike all their other victims

Thus the lack of evidence confirms that the transgendered were far worse off than the Jews. Yeah, that sounds right.

The 8th century was a very long time ago and there is very little documentary evidence of that period of history.

The Holocaust ended 80 years ago and the people who carried it out kept meticulous records. The Jewish community have painstakingly recorded the names of millions of their number who were murdered in the death camps.

So yes, frankly, if you want me to believe that trans people were targeted by the Nazis, you need to be able to come up with a few names.

And as with trans women in Afghanistan today, if you can escape persecution by putting some trousers on and going back to using a man's name, you're in a much better position than those who can't, aren't you?

You know there was no legal categorisation for trans people at that time right? They were targeted through public order offences or mental illness categories.

Is it any surprise we're not going to generate a long list of identifiable names?

If the Nazis never imprisoned any at all, I guess?

Is that your claim? Persecution, but totally evaded, hence no paperwork?

Public order offences such as homosexual acts, for example?

Amongst many others, possibly yes.

You know there was no legal categorisation for trans people at that time right?

EXACTLY!

That wasn't so hard now, was it?

So you can't do it then.

You can just admit it. If the documents and information went to court, the names would have been listed as evidence.

You've shown yourself up. No names, no evidence, just 'well, a court ruled it, so, er, it must be!'

I’m confused. If they were under the radar how were they then specifically persecuted for being trans but there is no documentation of the persecution attributed to named trans people?
There is an abundance of named Jewish victims for the same scenario.

I mean it's very clear what the deniers wish to do here; they want to paint a picture of 'It never happened' .

Any reasonable person should recognise the comprehensive list of people that the Nazis targeted and then think to themselves 'Hey wait, in this list of populations that were targeted, you are trying to tell me that the trans people weren't? Trans people were the only social misfits of the time that were given a free pass?'

Why would they be given a free pass? It doesn't add up, does it.

Are you assuming the gender identity of Nazi persecution victims?

Ah, so now comes the admission that there was no "legal categorisation" for trans people. In other words, it did...not....exist!

Strange there was a legal categorisation for gay people, the disabled, even for Jehovah's Witness. But NONE for trans people. Funny that.

If you had any self respect you'd concede you have absolutely zero evidence. You have no names, no documents, no evidence.

Because it's all bullshit! And you know it, and we know it, and you know that we know that you know it.

I haven't even looked for names.

I imagine it would be just be the usual bollox you get on here, 'no they weren't trans, they were gay '. 'o no, he was a tranvestite, he wasn't transgender' 🙄

If you want to ignore the testament of the Museum of Jewish Heritage and German courts, that is up to you.

Well I remember being taught that gay men were persecuted by the Nazis in about 1995. That's nothing new.

As Sal Grover so rightly said -

‘If you think women have penises, I won’t believe a single word you say about anything else. Because if you will lie about something so obvious, I will assume you lie about everything.’

So gay people. And hence categorised with a triangle. Not 'trans'.

Out of interest, do you believe that a trans genocide is currently taking place?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/373400577_Transgender_Life_and_Persecution_under_the_Nazi_State_Gutachten_on_the_Vollbrecht_Case

'In 1933, Hamburg officials wrote, “Police officials are requested to observe the transvestites, in particular, and as required to send them to concentration camps.'

'in the winter of 1944, a Berlin court tried Bruno Erfurth under §183 because Erfurth allegedly went out in public in a woman’s blouse and an “artificial lady’s bust”as well as other pieces of women’s clothing and thereby “caused a public
outcry.”There was no allegation of homosexuality recorded in this file. It was purely a cross-dressing case. (Erfurth was found not guilty.)'

'in one case, a police search of a person’s apartment found an “artificial lady’s
bust.”The accused person said they only wore women’s clothing at home, never in public. Police let this person go but made the person promise to stop wearing the garments in private.
26
In another case that Jane Caplan first brought to light, that of Gerd Kubbe of Berlin, police at first reacted harshly but later showed surprising leniency. Kubbe’s transvestite permit was revoked in 1933. Accused of wearing men’s clothing in public, he was sent to a concentration camp in 1938. Some months later, however, he was released and granted permission to wear men’s clothing and to use the first name “Gerd.'

How do we know they were persecuted for being trans then?. Rather than mentally ill or homosexual?

I perfectly open to the idea that transvestites (as they were called at the time) were subject to discrimination at the time, in the sense that they had their transvestite certificates revoked and couldn't openly dress as they liked. (Eg as the opposite sex). But that's very very different to being victims of the Holocaust.

Indeed.

The persecution of Jewish people wasn't limited to dictating what they wore, was it?

Except transgender didn't even exist back then as a concept. And you can't say there were categorisations for everything from gay to disabled to JWs - but not transgender.

That does not make sense does it. And as a famous tv judge is often saying "if it doesn't make sense, it's not true!"