Finding GC/sex realist men to date

[GCdater]

I've spent the last decade living in a country that's very captured by gender ideology but will soon be moving back to Britain. My reasons to move are personal and family related, but I have followed gender issues for several years, including all the hard won victories by the British terven (and the Cass report etc). These changes make me hopeful that I will be able to find some like-minded women friends.

But, I will be coming back as a single woman and having been out of the dating pool for a long time, I'm wondering what it's like to date as a GC/sex realist woman... I'm in my late forties and will be looking to date men in a similar age range (basically Gen X). I used to be a typical Guardian reader and the sectors I've worked in are all typically "captured", but I defected to The Times and I'm pretty much centrist politically now.

I know that for younger women, including women in their thirties, there is significant pressure to conform ideologically on the gender issue, including from men in that age range. I see such a range of stories about men on here, from misogynist lefty men hectoring women to men who think it's all nonsense. It's difficult to get a sense of what I'll be likely to encounter once I start meeting people/going on dates etc (this obviously presupposes I'll be able to get a date in the first place, and I know the dating pool of forties/fifties men is much smaller but that's a whole other issue!).

Am I right in thinking that Gen X men are far more likely to think it's all nonsense? Or is this wishful thinking?

I'm a realist and just meeting men who don't believe TWAW and understand that sex matters is really all I'd be looking for on this front, even if they need to be in stealth mode about it. There are obviously multiple other areas of importance around compatibility in dating and this is just one thing - I just cannot contemplate getting into a relationship with a man who literally believes in gender woo!

I'm interested to hear about women's experience dating as GC/sex realist, especially in my age range, and also the men who read and comment on here - do you feel like you're in a minority among other men?

I did read a post about "dating as a terf" on MN a while ago (more than a year I think). But it seemed to be from a younger woman telling men upfront on dating apps that she was a terf (and using the word terf specifically) which was off putting to lots of men by the sound of it, and she was getting a very negative responses from them. She did get some advice about signalling more subtly her GC views on dating apps as a way to filter men out, so that's an option, but I'm interested more broadly for now about what men's views are in general and women's experiences in dating and starting relationships as a GC/sex realist.

Any thoughts are appreciated!

I think most men will be biological realists.

The few who aren’t will likely be vocal about it and they are the ones that do the o line hectoring. Won’t date trans women though - ofcourse not. Thats different.

Most men mainly don’t care as it doesn’t effect them.

I think you’ll have plenty of choice. Other attributes though are probably still lacking.

I am not on the dating scene but I am of the same age and political orientation as you. I am vocal about my beliefs in mixed company and have not yet met a man in my social circle who is TWAW. Most, generally, haven't thought much about it, but when they do they come to a common sense (aka GC) view. Some have told me that they feel uncomfortable discussing it, even one on one, even though they agree with me, due to possible professional ramifications. So im(very limited, naturally)e Gen X men are generally cowardly, thoughtless but sensible.

Good luck with the move!!

Thank you - that's good to hear and this is generally my assumption about Gen X men, but looking on from afar it's hard to tell if I'm getting it right. I mean, being less thoughtless would be great, but sensible is a baseline requirement!

I have yet to meet a man who doesn’t think it’s absolutely nonsense… but they do stealth that opinion because women say/indicate that’s what they think. Possibly preference falsification.

i once said something like “God, I’d block you instantly if you told me your pronouns!” and it definitely opened the door to him saying he thought the whole thing was gibberish.

In very political left wing circles gen x men can be either be very pro-trans or secretly or openly gender critical or even more likely duck out of the discussion. I think in alternative musical circles pro trans arguments are common, but also in those circles Gen X men remember the before times when men cross dressed a lot. So they might think transsexuals need support, but they might be very sceptical of multiple genders/pronouns and also be very aware that crossdressers can be harmless or creepy predators. They are probably going to be open to discussion about it. After all Gen x women are at the heart of the fight back so men are usually aware to some degree. As always the easiest thing would be open with sports as even pro trans men generally draw a line there. Obviously right leaning men generally think it is all nonsense.

A lot of us are in stealth mode unfortunately, and as you say, largely because other women are frequently the enforcers of this groupthink.

Living in a country where I have to be so careful about what I say I'm hoping it will be freeing to be less stealthy once I'm in the UK, but it's so ingrained at this point I know taking that first step to be more direct about my opinions will feel uncomfortable.

Thanks - yes, sports are a good way in to this discussion.

My dh is in his 30s and usually votes green, is definitely not centrist.but says trans men are biological women, trans women are biological men and you can't change your sex.

I don't actually think people don't acknowledge biological sex outside of some extremely lefty circles.

I’d say Gen X men will pretty much all know what is reality of sex. In my experience they will agree with the big stuff - no men in women’s sports, or women’s prisons. However I found that they didn’t really care as it didn’t affect them directly. I feel very strongly about stuff but it was almost seen as unimportant. And I should stop going on about it !
One ex was asking me who I’d vote for in the US elections - a moot point as I’m English but he didn’t like my response that I would never vote for someone who couldn’t state biological reality. Apparently that wasn’t an important enough reason. Another ex had a daughter in guides and wasn’t really bothered about issues facing women until I asked him if he’d be ok with a male sharing accommodation with his daughter on a girl guide camp , or would he be bothered if a man in a dress followed his daughter into the ladies. Obviously he was bothered when it affected his daughter but generally he didn’t care much. I have a daughter who I care about individually, but I also care about all women and girls as a whole in society.

DH and his friends are amongst the very first of Gen X (or the very last of the boomers).

Whenever I've heard this issue being raised with any of them, their reaction is very much as you say.

Thanks for the comments! The lack of actual engagement from gen x men isn't surprising, but it is heartening to have my thoughts confirmed that they are not true believers.

I haven't attempted even broaching this type of conversation with gen x men in the country I currently live in because it's still in the repeat all the required mantras stage and it seems like many middle aged men who are generally socially liberal have taken a vow of silence about their views on gender, including when it comes to sports.

The SC ruling was reported in the media but with a faux baffled air of "what are those old fashioned weirdos in the UK doing" - the media didn't want to engage with it at all.

My ex is a proudly woke Gen X he/him, and I know a few of them in particular circles - arts, academia, lefty politics and some kinds of public sector and charity staff. That’s where they are most likely to be true believers/misogynist virtue-signallers, but I agree in more general terms men who were around in the 80s mostly don’t really buy it. Though they may fly under the radar.

These are the kind of circles and work environments I'm familiar with, both in my current country and in my life in the UK before I moved. I will have to broaden my horizons a bit!

Me too, worse luck! Sworn off men really, can’t be arsed. But I do think GC men exist in these circles too and they are less likely to be noticed/bothered about than GC women. They mainly just stay quiet.

Did you end up having conflicts with your he/him ex about gender and women's rights issues?

No, split up before it became a very current issue although it was around when it was taking off. I did struggle with his unconscious/denied misogyny though and had arguments with him about feminist issues so it didn’t surprise me when he nailed his colours to the mast. We have a good co-parenting relationship overall and don’t discuss it. He knows I’m GC but he wouldn’t dare argue with me about it as he knows I can argue him into a pulp and I suspect he knows his position is inconsistent.

if you’re not trans and you’re not looking to date a trans person is a man’s opinion on this really one of the most important things you’re looking for in a romantic partner? Most probably don’t really care. As you said the dating pool is a lot smaller…Stats suggest about 40% of men in the UK believe TWAW but probably a lower percentage aged in late 40s/50s compared to younger men

Truthfully, I think the people you are looking to date are probably largesly disinterested in the topic. It's not a subject I've ever known a (straight) man to bring up.

It's about compatibility. Having a shared belief system and a shared understanding of what constitutes reality is important in a relationship. The idea that sex is real, binary and it matters and isn't trumped by gender identity used to just be a baseline, completely normal belief that wouldn't need any discussion. But I don't think we can just assume that someone believes this anymore - my experiences in my current country bear this out, as well as the reaction in the UK to the Supreme Court judgment.

This issue has split families so the idea that this belief system is simply not important in relationships is a disingenuous idea to me. I wouldn't fall out with my family members over it - those are preexisting and meaningful relationships, but I wouldn't start a new romantic relationship with someone who has a diametrically opposed view to me. I'm not an activist and I'm not interested in dating an activist (of any kind), so I'm less concerned about a man who hasn't really thought about it that much (I know this is likely to be most men), but I for sure don't want to date someone who is wedded to the idea that gender identity should take precedence over biological sex in situations where sex matters.

As I said I haven't been living in the UK for over ten years so my post is about how prevalent a belief in gender ideology is in men in the UK now, and whether it's limited to shouty lefty men.

I've noticed a sneaky tactic amongst some lefty men - they hold clearly GC views but claim they are strongly pro-trans and merely reject the "extremist fringe" of trans ideology, refusing to acknowledge that those so-called extreme views are really just the standard trans and pro-trans agenda. It's a two-faced position that allows them to quietly side with terfs on all the important issues, while making a big show of rolling their eyes at terfs.

Take them to task on it and they soon back out of the debate completely, shaking their heads at "conflict-centred people" who are not prepared to remain quietly hypocritical and contradictory on these issues.

To be honest, most of us (Not me) are fairly apathetic about the issue. Generally, most men think the idea that trans women are really women is a bit bonkers, it's just one of those lies society tells to run more smoothly. They know that not parroting the mantras can get you sacked, so they say the words, add the pronouns to their emails and just try not to get involved.

Generally, I've found with most men over 30, once you've revealed your own sanity, they're a lot more willing to talk about their own GC views. Start a conversation about the SC judgement, and they'll say something trans supportive, because they thinks that's what's expected, but then when you start digging into sports, single sex changing rooms and reveal your own thoughts on it, they'll finally realise they're talking to someone they can have a sane conversation with.

As a nation, we've had a decade of not being able to say what you really think on this subject, for fear of getting sacked, ostracized, banned from Reddit etc. Things are changing, but because this issue isn't as close to men's hearts as women's, we've mostly not noticed yet, so we're still playing it very very safe.

Men who are into sport are much more likely to be realists, also those who work in a rural setting (no gender fluid spectrum with large, dangerous livestock).

Well in my world (late 30s, mix of straight/gay friends, feminists, mostly liberal, I know a couple of trans people) most people are firmly of the belief, men included, that TWAW and that there is a difference between sex and gender. Some have mixed beliefs when it comes to female only spaces, myself included. Splitting up families though..really?! I know my mum who’s in her 70s doesn’t “believe” in trans people but she’s a completely different generation, I wouldn’t force a modern believe system on her. It’s really not even worth arguing about. She also voted for brexit - which was a MUCH bigger issue. It’s not just lefty people, it’s the majority I’d say (you won’t get a realistic picture on MN - everyone on here’s anti trans) if you narrowed your dating pool to hard right-wingers you’ll be in luck I’m sure, but then you’d have to date a wanker

There certainly is a difference between sex and gender - sex is real, gender is imaginary. When a man "identifies as a woman", what he's really doing of course is identifying as what he imagines a woman to be like, since "being a woman" is not something he can actually experience.

This makes no difference to the trans lobby, who are adamant that the men who "imagine they're what women are like" should have full access to women's safe spaces, women's sport, women's awards and reserved positions etc.

Because what a man imagines is obviously more important than what a woman actually is, and therefore the sex-based rights of women must be cancelled.

@Roxietrees It’s not just lefty people, it’s the majority I’d say (you won’t get a realistic picture on MN - everyone on here’s anti trans) if you narrowed your dating pool to hard right-wingers you’ll be in luck I’m sure, but then you’d have to date a wanker.

Trans scepticism is now far more widespread than you think. Labour voters disagree with 20 out of 25 of the statements YouGov polls. Men in general disagree with 24 of 25.

I’d say the odds are pretty good for GCdater with Gen X men.