Why are so many ‘cis’ men invested in the trans discussion ?

[Rivypike]

To me it seems more to be just a dislike of women of a certain age rather than a genuine respect for trans people. So many slurs about GC women being grey and middle aged, even ugly. Is it really just plain old misogyny ? Because we’re too uppity and outspoken, we’ve overtaken them in many spheres and that’s all they’ve got ?

No, you know that's not what I meant.

I'm a man. Male. Born with an outie rather than an innie. My biology is set up around the production of small gametes.

Does this faux "Oh I'm going to pretend not to understand what you mean because you won't use my terminology" ever actually win you any arguments?

I would suggest simply ignoring the 'cis' community disruptors but it's actually quite a useful example of how much value they bring to a discussion like this i.e nothing.

So you keep on wanging on about 'cis', Micaela et al while the rest of us have an interesting discussion.

"They are really vulnerable and wouldn't be safe". He's mellowed a bit, but was definitely in the women should budge up corner 🙄

He's generally now moved to the third spaces camp, but has watched Blair White so occasionally tried to convince me that I wouldn't always be able to tell me I wouldn't always be able to tell. Then agreed when I said how awful he was being putting trans people into 2 categories those that "pass" and a sub category of those that don't.

Being obsessed with labels, language and categorisations is a feature of autism. And we know of the links between autism and trans.

At home I am starting to see a change.

DH is starting to back track a bit from the 'be kind' position.

He does enjoy watching a lot of sport including women's sports. He enjoys women's sports because there tends to be more of a purity of skill and technique rather than simply muscle. Allowing TW to compete as women meant he was going to lose what he enjoys watching.

I think the Cass report was a bit of an eye opener for DS. He had swallowed hook, line and sinker, the idea that all trans people were 'poor, misunderstood, young women trapped in men's bodies'. The idea that an awful lot are female, on the autistic spectrum, struggling with puberty and sexual orientation hadn't occurred to him.

Obviously neither are saying they were wrong but both seem to be keen to not talk about it.

Tennant has a boy who is "trans". He & his wife are unashamed to use their children as props to support the "trans" cult as shown in their 'Hello' magazine photo spread.

https://www.hellomagazine.com/healthandbeauty/mother-and-baby/700962/david-georgia-tennant-photos-children-pride-month-celebrations/

You are the one who thinks "cis" is a word when it's a prefix.

Yes, it shows the lack of substance amongst these Righteous keyboard warriors. Thinking that a bit of self-identified clever-clever wordsmithery is somehow a mighty blow against the forces of Darkness

I've just been reminded of one of the poems I wrote which was in Under the Duvet of Darkness which seems appropriate for this thread -

A misogynist's wet dream

Men,
Who lurked for such a short while as 'good guys'
Now have free rein.
Unleashed, they say all they wanted to but couldn't.
Bitch, witch, ugly, old, bigot, terf, frigid, cold.

Sheer orgasmic pleasure at 'telling those bitches'
While society cheers them on.

'Decapitate terfs' above a smirk.
Screaming 'witch' from above.
Forced smiles on a podium.

It was always there. Under the surface.
Seething but contained.
But now? They can say, self righteously,
'Burn the witch!'

I listened to the 'The Rest is Politics' episode on the SC judgement, because I like to torture myself. AC was infuriatingly naive (while being utterly convinced of the correctness of his position) on the topic. Very, 'you've thought about it for 5 minutes and think you've come to some interesting conclusions.' He said he takes his lead from his daughter and her friends - on what other subject does an almost 70 year old man defer to someone with less life experience, less professional experience and less education on the topic? (TBF it sounds like they're fairly evenly informed, which is to say not at all).

I have a theory that lefty men are more likely than centrist/righty men to be virulently TWAW because lefty men are more likely to have children or nieces/nephews who self identify as some type of trans or non-binary.

This in turn is based on my primary theory that ROGD teens are mostly from fairly privileged lefty/liberal families. Like all teens, they go through a period of wanting to rebel, but their parents are so liberal that not much of typical teen rebellion (drinking, weed, possibly being gay, being atheist) can shock them. Trans is therefore the teen's only avenue for fulfilling the healthy and natural teenage desire to carve out a self-identity which stands in some way in opposition to their parents.

Such a good point.

Its a great way to met teenagers, isnt it?

Not since being a student myself in clubs where inexplicably older men liked the same music as me, have i seen young students and older men being attracted to the same cause.

I'm a man (adult human male) and am pretty invested in this topic - very much on the Gender Critical side of the debate.

I learned about the issues, initially from Mumsnet, and then from trying to read both sides in order to get a balanced view. What I found is that the only "balanced" view tends to be more on the GC side of the argument, whereas I think that most views and arguments on the side that would call itself "trans-inclusive" tend to be rather unbalanced, to put it mildly. So reading both sides brought me to a more intransigent set of views than where I started.

The closest version to a "balanced" narrative that I could find is to start by acknowledging that yes, there is very small group of genuinely gender dysphoric males who felt miserable in their bodies until they had surgery and started wearing clothes, etc. that make them look somewhat like biological females - and historically, their discreet presence in many otherwise female-only spaces was generally accepted and that was good for them.

However, there then came to be a much larger, louder, aggressive and well-funded movement of males, who furthermore hijacked several of the gay ray rights charities such as Stonewall, who want to bully everyone into pretending that males can become females, or that being female is subjective rather than objective and that sex is on a "spectrum" rather than binary. This movement of bullies demanded acceptance that men be permitted to invade and often dominate all of the previously sex-segregated female spaces where adult human females are most vulnerable to being dominated by them as males, including prisons, changing rooms, showers sleeping accommodation shared with strangers, and contact sports, etc.

This pissed me off. I do not like bullies. There are women whom I love and do not want to see subjected to bullying. So I became very invested in the topic, discussing it with friends both male and female, and supporting some of the organisations active on the GC side.

What I found is that most males with whom I have discussed this also lean very much towards the GC side. They just generally keep their mouths shut on this topic because they already get treated as automatic bigots for being male, white and over 50.

I also found that many people who describe themselves as "trans inclusive" would actually NOT agree that transwomen should be able to join in women's sports teams, get housed in women's prisons, etc.

There is still a small group of biological men who look enough like women that they are likely to be unsafe in men's single-sex spaces, and a dilemma remains around how to keep them safe, but solutions needs to be found that solve that without disadvantaging biological women.

That is what the recent SC ruling should lead to.

That’s interesting as I think I read on 🥝 Farms that TW Abigail Thorn is from that background with cadet corps etc.

So over lunch today my pals cam up with the answer. Men want to be involved in decision making. We thought that men actively involved in this are trying to improve their status in politics / unions / HR and aren’t in it for the long run. it’s all about exerting influence, to be seen as being a leader, and as soon as the next ‘big’ thing comes along they will jump on board that.

So males at the BBQ couldn’t give a toss about the trans debate as it doesn’t impact them but they do find some transgender women funny as they have seen photos, think it is unfair to allow trans women into competitive sport, and don’t understand how it is possible to be a woman if you have a willy and loads of male testosterone. They recoiled at the idea of dating a trans woman so I called them transphobic but they had no idea what that meant apart from the ones in their twenties.

Totally agree and this is why my dd and I struggle to have a conversation about the issue.

when she’s talking about trans women she’s picturing people like the tw she went to school with who was always feminine and is now a petite blonde nail technician who is stunning, where as I am picturing the likes of Eddie izzard and the middle aged guy who walks round bournemouth in a black leather skirt, fishnets, a dodgy black wig and way too much make up and stubble.

in the case of my dds friend, I think no-ones going to look twice at you in the ladies toilets so what’s the problem with us trying to keep the middle aged men in stilettos out.

"Cis" is not a fact, and for that matter, "trans" in the modern sense is not a fact either. Both are made-up bollocks designed to oppress women.

"Transsexual" meant someone with a gender dysphoria diagnosis and a defined medical pathway involving hormones and surgery. We might dispute whether hormones and surgery are an appropriate treatment for a disorder of the mind, but nonetheless there was a medical diagnosis after an assessment process, and hence some support for the existence of gender dysphoria. By contrast, we are now told that "trans is an identity, not an illness" and have men like Alex Drummond wearing full beards whilst claiming to be women. "Trans" has become a meaningless label.

Therefore if someone says they're not Cis then they are declaring that they're Trans.

That's pure mince on toast. Cis is unnecessary and entirely redundant; everyone knows what is meant by woman and man. Transw aren't women, they're men LARPing as women, which, for some, necessities the use of a prefix.

It's a way of controlling women.

The latest I heard was that they are now 'non binary'.

My cynical opinion is that they have then been used as a prop by publicity hungry parents looking to play the role of super cool parents.

It is very common for the children of famous media people to act out in some way. How do you get attention if your parents are always looking to be the stars?

That picture of DT wearing the “You Will Have To Go Through Me” always makes me laugh.
I fancied him back in his DW days (the first round) but he’s always looked like a stiff breeze would knock him over.

I think it provides cover for men who just hate women and want a "legitimate" cover to act out on that hatred, this is especially true for men who love to describe themselves as feminists, left wing and right on. You could see it in the men who were screaming in the faces of gender critical women in last weeks protests. Unfortunately many men simply hate women and long to oppress us, abuse us and hurt us in anyway they can.

I think for many men there is also an instinctual reflex to support men's sexual rights, not "sex based rights" but the right of men to sex and sexual satisfaction especially where that pertains to women and access to them. We also see this with some TRA's also campaigning for lowering of the age of consent or trying to normalise sexualisation and grooming of children. For many men, their rights to sexual satisfaction trumps all.

Porn and porn sickness is also a big factor, porn use amongst men is pretty much universal at this point and chronic use is at epidemic proportions and at younger and younger ages. This works almost as a form of brainwashing to men to see women not as people but as sexual objects and things for men to use. If women are just things then what is the harm if a man wants to be a woman? After all "woman" isn't really a person its just a collection of tropes and holes which only exist in so far as a man can make use of them. Add to that the fact that porn use tends to escalate with many men entering a pipeline that takes them from fairly softcore content to extreme fetish, bdsm, rough porn and the terminal point seems to be sissy porn because for men the ultimate thrill and humiliation is being a woman, a non being in their eyes, especially within the context of porn.

Then their is autogynaphilia, some suggest that the rates of autogynaphilia i.e. a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as female is around 3% of the male population. If true that is almost a million men in the UK with this paraphilia. Some of those men will be living as transwomen but others will not be but they may have a strong interest in transitioning in future, they may enjoy using porn with men who identify as women and other wise strongly empathise with trans rights over women's rights because their own agp proclivities clouds their judgement. I am actually deeply suspect of any man who is very involved in supporting trans rights for this reason.

I am sure their are other reasons but I think these are the main ones.

Don’t use CIS.

I agree that it's silly to be offended by facts. So why do some men who are pretending to be women get offended when people call them men or refer to them as 'he'?

'Cis' isn't a fact though. It's an absurd made-up term which suggests that there is a type of woman who isn't an adult female human. Women are female. Men who pretend to be women are still men.