Why are so many ‘cis’ men invested in the trans discussion ?

[Rivypike]

To me it seems more to be just a dislike of women of a certain age rather than a genuine respect for trans people. So many slurs about GC women being grey and middle aged, even ugly. Is it really just plain old misogyny ? Because we’re too uppity and outspoken, we’ve overtaken them in many spheres and that’s all they’ve got ?

…and hopelessly missing the point about coercing women to name themselves only in ways approved of by you?
How about you start to hear, and accept, that women are allowed to say No to you. And that No means No.

This is DH, he can't understand the issues until you talk about sharing showers, changing rooms, etc then he's all surely that wouldn't happen.

He then agrees with some single sex spaces, but thinks it totally meany territory to say the obvious that TW are men and that we should just be kind.

Surprisingly he seems okay with the Supreme Court decision.

He then gets all offended and "just looking for a compromise" when you ask him what business it is of his as a man to decide who women are happy sharing their same sex spaces with.

Ah, yes, the 'why can't you all be reasonable' from men who have determinedly shied away from the issue and are now doing the 'what about 3rd spaces' and 'where are the feminists?'

Nobody's saying you have to use it yourself, but it's a bit silly to get offended if others do it. A bit like being offended if someone called you "a woman with brown hair" or "a tall woman" It's just a fact really.

Looks accurate

Do you tell other people what they should or shouldn’t be offended by?

All groups or just women

Ah, silly, silly women, eh, @Micaela64 ?

It's been an interesting thread, OP, and I suppose it gets to the heart of women being seen by some men (left and right) as essentially lesser humans. Another good book if anyone hasn't read it is Invisible Women which goes into how the world has been designed with men as the default human from drug trials to test crash dummies.

Why David Tennant is an easy one. He missed the adoration he got from kids when he was playing Dr Who. Going all TWAW was just a band wagon he could jump on to keep him cool with the kids.

He will jump off that bandwagon when it stops serving his purpose. He's an actor, he would throw his own granny under a bus for publicity and a good part.

Closer to home I see it used as a way to keep women disagreeing amongst themselves. They don't care about trans rights, as a pp said, TW are a women's problem to deal with as TW aren't proper men.

There's a lot at play, it really should be a psychotherapist's dream.

I will detail some theories that actually have nothing to do with women, but male dominance.

Incel culture is very much based around a hatred of successful dominant men ("chads"), as well as the hatred of women. Incels actually hate Andrew Tate because he's the opposite of them. You hear a lot of Incels moan about the patriarchy and basically how they're not man-enough to fit into that.

Transmaxxing is basically an offshoot of Incel, where a lot of these boys feel that they're so bad at being men they might as well become women, and I suppose be dominated by the "chads". They again moan about the patriarchy a lot.

I see a lot of these trans women, who do look like failed men, overweight, unemployed etc, I imagine for them cross-dressing is another form of self-embarrassment for them.

In Asian cultures they don't consider trans women men (and not women either), having sex with them isn't considered gay. But really it is men dominating over "weaker" men.

From a Western POV I see a lot of these men who support trans women as really asserting their male dominance over other men and positioning themselves high with the male hierarchy. In most species males dominant over weaker males.

TLDR, it is really Alpha and Beta males.

That's just my thoughts, much of it picked up from various threads here, particularly when an activist comes on here!

Also because this is a far easier a problem for men to fix than the actual problem itself which is tackling male violence.

For that, men need to change and these “good” men need to call out and stand up against other men’s aggression.

F’ck that eh?!

Yes indeed, remember when you read Shakespeare in English, that's a cislation, when your flight is returning your from America to Europe after a visit it's a cisAtlantic flight, a solid object that light can't pass through is cisparent and when buses are in the depot overnight they are public cisport vehicles.

Be very careful to use it every time, because you wouldn't want people to think you're a gullible idiot who hasn't got a fucking clue what words mean.

@TheCatsTongue I think it is about seeing the world as men & not men.

Men at the top of the hierarchy and all the not men subordinate. Possibly they see TW as slightly higher in the not men part of the hierarchy as they were men.

Except it isn’t just a fact really …(a) because transwomen are men and therefore seeking to create the false category of cis-women so as to allow space for trans-women should be resisted (b) agreeing about my height or hair colour doesn’t mean I then have to allow rapists into women’s prisons or destroy women’s sports, does it.

That’s a No from me.

I'm a man, I'm not cis because cis is a load of bollocks.

I'm very invested in the discussion because I have a wife and daughter and I'm on Mumsnet, which has opened my eyes to what's going on.

I don't think most men are that invested in the discussion though. Unless if has affected the women in their lives in a meaningful way, they don't see how it really affects them.

The only thing that's really registered with them is that you can get cancelled for wrong think. Maybe they're Father Ted fans who've heard what's happened to Graham Lineham, maybe they've read a couple of Guardian articles about the evils of JK Rowling. So they parrot TWAW, and consent to putting pronouns in their emails, and generally just don't engage with the subject.

The vast majority of men haven't really registered the news about the supreme court, haven't noticed the winds are changing. They don't know that you don't get cancelled any more for saying TWAM, so there's going to be a certain amount of inertia there before they finally notice something has changed.

Of course there are exceptions. The Owen Jones' of this world, who are so lefty that they can't possibly conceive of not being on the side of the "most marginalised" group, or the ones who see this as another way to control women.

But most men, just don't know enough about the topic to care, to think through the consequences. And some of these men are politicians, CEOs, in charge of the media. They don't want to have to think about this, so they farm it out to Stonewall to handle for them.

Things are slowly changing, and they're starting to wake up. I've had a few conversations over the last few months that started with "Vimes, you know about all this trans crap, what's actually going on?". But mostly that inertia still rumbles on.

"I'm a man, I'm not cis"

Oh so you're Trans then?

That is such an interesting point - and it makes perfect sense.

You're the one who seems to be having difficulty understanding what the word Cis means

I saw Rory Stewart using this rhetoric on his politics podcast with Alistair Campbell.

He took the view that there must be a compromise because transwomen (biological males) would get beat up in mens toilets. And some would be unsafe in mens prisons.

So, rather than tackling the actual issue of male violence and what can men do reduce that? Instead TW(BM) should be women's issues to solve, because men are just too violent to vulnerable groups.

FUNNY gullible idiot without a fucking clue 😆

Scientists adopting a Latin prefix is one thing

Career-building sociologists extending the use of that prefix to describe people with a sexual paraphilia is another

Fanatics using a different Latin term to suggest that being afflicted with a sense of 'gender identity' is a usual part of human existence is another.

Cis is not a word, it's a Latin prefix. If you are not speaking Latin, don't use it. Or do, if you don't mind people knowing you're a ninny.

Men's jobs: hunt woolly mammoths

Women's jobs: deal with everything else, don't bother the men about it, they are busy thinking about hunting woolly mammoths

If you can't hunt woolly mammoths you aren't a man so must be the other thing.

Perhaps he could find that “compromise” he’s looking for by insisting transwomen are welcome in men’s spaces.

Yes, quite possibly.

It's very much about enforcing their hierarchy and keeping other men out of it (or lower down). I know of some men (who would probably deem themselves alpha) who don't want gay men using the men's toilets, seems to fit the same pattern with trans women too.

The concept of "allies" is important too. We live in a society (that may be changing again) with quotas, DEI etc, and a lot of middle-aged white men would be on the chopping block. Being seen as an ally protects yourself.

Because men aren’t a subset of women.