What questions should people be asking themselves?

[bigknitblanket]

If you were trying to encourage someone who has been taken in by trans ideology to critically think about the whole gender thing…what questions would you suggest they ask themselves?
I’ll start with “At what point during transition does a man become a woman?”

When a male heterosexual colleague came out with TWAW I simply looked at him and said ‘so you’d shag a trans woman then, would you?’ And I could see the realisation come across his face.

Ahh but one day some of them will want to become parents and then they will discover that sex (as in M or F) has a purpose and that it is fundamental and insurmountable when it comes to making babies.

How do I know the difference between a man pretending to be a woman to gain access to female only spaces, and a ‘real’ transwoman?

Should my sister, who suffered childhood abuse and also abuse as an adult, be forced to accept personal care from transwomen? Despite the fact that it re-triggers her trauma and could result in a stay in psychiatric hospital

That's true to some extent! We don't need to (and shouldn't) treat people differently due to their sex in probably most situations. The reality is that sexism prevails and people have different expectations on others based purely on their sex. But that's not how it should be.

However there are still quite a lot of circumstances where sex does matter. That's where this all becomes relevant.
Healthcare. Dating (for most people). Sports. Situations where someone might be vulnerable or need to assess physical risk. In these circumstances no-one should aim to deceive anyone about their sex.

Then a short while after that, if they are of the F variety, unless they're unusually lucky with their M, they're highly likely to find that being F gets you the shit end of the deal.

Then they will be ignored when they try to explain this to younger Fs!

In response to "I'm not interested in FtoM transexuals"; do you only want to be angry or are you interested in the whole argument/discussion? Trans covers a wide variety of people, more than you may be aware of.
I am born female and not trans but I know people who are; they are not a threat to me.

Reading all these posts, I am so concerned at the level of aggression expressed. Even more so, when it is in the name of Feminism. We all have the right to disagree and express opinions. The anger I have read in these posts seems OTT.

Our friends/ loved ones are generally not a threat to us and if they are we tend to cut them out of our lives. But this isn't about your lovely friends this is about men in women's spaces. Men that we don't know, men that have been proven to be no safer as a group than men in general as a group.

I promise you my DH is lovely and a great feminist ally but you probably wouldn't want to bump into all 6'5" of him in the ladies or have him watching you while you shower/change at the gym (but don't worry you wont because he gets that it's in appropriate for men to enter women's spaces).

You know your trans friends are harmless but I don't know them, and you don't know my nice trans friends or the frankly creepy AF bloke I know who decide a few years ago that he is actually a woman.

Why, did you think women aren't allowed to express anger for some reason? Is female anger too "unladylike" for you?

Tough. Feminism has always allowed women to be angry, perhaps you missed the memo about what it actually means.

There is very good reason for women, especially feminists, to be angry. More women should be, in fact, given the scale of the recent attacks on our rights, and the handwaving away by simpering enablers of the long term abuses and violent threats being made towards ANY women who dissented or even dared to ask questions. Women have been lied about and abused, and women have been directly, often physically, harmed by this absolute nonsense.

Anger is a perfectly reasonable response to this level of hatred and attacks. It's also fuel. Less of the tone policing, please, we don't all believe in the need for women to flutter our eyelashes and "be nice".

I didn't state that women shouldn't be angry. There's a difference between anger and aggression. Your response was aggressive and silly; I've never fluttered my eyelashes and this kind of comment belittles feminism

(sorry, this was to your comment informing us of the existence of trans men and for some reason referencing the Bible.)

Lol. Yes, we know. Trans men are female though and therefore a different demographic to those who are a threat to women (males, including those who id as women) and who have been forcing their way into women's spaces without consent.

And what on earth has the Bible got to do with it?

You won't get many bible-thumpers here. This is a UK feminist forum. We also swear and generally don't do the "women are meant to be soft and subservient" thing. Sounds, from all the finger wagging and "be kind" stuff, like you're new here, and unclear of the stance, history and people you're talking to.

I think your comments so far have been pretty silly, tbh.

As for "aggressive" - I really couldn't care less if you interpret other women's anger that way. I don't do "feminine subservience". You are tone policing what other women are allowed to say when they disagree with you and how you think we should be permitted to say it. Suggest you stop.

Oh, and PS. Less of the disingenuousness and faux "concern" too please. We see it often on these forums. Now THAT does "belittle feminism".

Would they strip naked in front of their father-in-law? Brother-in-law? IT bloke at work? Man who works in their local newsagents? Male boss?
If the answer is no, why is that?
Assuming they know these men are fairly decent types and they’re not at risk of sexual assault from any of them, some people seem to think if we’re not actually being raped we should happily let all men into female-only spaces but it’s not just physical safety it’s also about privacy and dignity.

If they answer no to the above question then would they change their answer if their male boss came into work on Monday wearing a dress?
If the answer is yes ask them if all females, including young women, should be happy to get undressed in front of males. Should there be any spaces in fact where females can be free from males?

Just ignore the derailers and those that haven't understood. This is a good thread with interesting responses to the OP!

Can you just point to one example of aggression? This is a (really interesting) thread which effectively picks apart some of the inconsistencies in gender ideology. No threats of violence or murder (you have seen the placards trans activists like to wave at women I assume?), lots of comments about how calm, rational discussion beats ranting…..

I know there’s a very eloquent post explaining how reasonable it is that women should be angry, (edited to add that I am in full agreement with that) yet here we are considering ways to gently point out where someone might want to reconsider their arguments - but that’s still too aggressive for you???

Assuming they know these men are fairly decent types and they’re not at risk of sexual assault from any of them, some people seem to think if we’re not actually being raped we should happily let all men into female-only spaces but it’s not just physical safety it’s also about privacy and dignity.

Exactly, and to that I'd also add fear. If I'm in a female toilet or changing room or hospital ward and there's obviously a male there, of course there's a risk he'll actually attack/rape me, though that's probably not a high risk, and knowing that makes me anxious and uncomfortable - just like when someone's walking behind you at night and you feel relief when you realise it's a woman but are on your guard if it's a man.

The whole point of a women-only space is being able to relax and feel safe because no men are there - and as statistically transwomen have a higher incidence of sexual offending than men in general, it doesn't make me feel better at all if the man is IDing as a woman. He is statistically more likely to behave badly (and I don't just mean rape but things like harassment, masturbating, flashing etc).

It's like putting a big powerful barking dog in with cats and saying "he won't hurt anyone". Maybe not but the cats will still be on edge, stressed, unhappy, unable to relax.

@WhatterySquash
It's like putting a big powerful barking dog in with cats and saying "he won't hurt anyone". Maybe not but the cats will still be on edge, stressed, unhappy, unable to relax.

That is a great analogy.

This is a (really interesting) thread which effectively picks apart some of the inconsistencies in gender ideology.

There was a brilliant thread a while ago about just this - based on the article archived here
https://archive.ph/8OQZR

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921827-the-endless-contradictions-of-gender-ideology

The one I'm not clear on is, if a woman can just as easily be a male or a female, what is the issue with TW going in male loos? Sex doesn't define whether the people in there will be men or women, and they want all spaces to be mixed-sex, so what is the issue - that the people in there might not identify as the same gender as them? But that isn't a risk marker in the same way that sex is.