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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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CautiousLurker01 · 27/04/2025 11:46

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:23

It depends what you mean by “a gender identity”. I think for most people feelings about being a man or a woman, and feelings about how masculine or feminine they are, play an important role in their identity

I think you are mixing up gender identity with ‘awareness of one’s sex’.

I absolutely do not wander through life ‘feeling’ feminine or ‘like a woman’. I just am one. Just as I don’t ‘feel like a human being’, I just am one. My life is shaped by my sexed body - the periods, the miscarriages, the carrying to full-term and birthing of two babies, the menopause etc all had specific practical implications on my daily existence; just as sex-specific laws surrounding employment rights, maternity benefit entitlement (for example) are all predicated on my being legally recognised as a woman. My personal experiences of life in a woman’s body have shaped my understanding of others and, hopefully, led to my being more empathetic than I might have been had my experiences in that same body been different.

But ‘being a woman’ is not part of my identity. I am a multi faceted being and consider my ‘self’ to be rather like a diamond or 3-dimensional crystal prism where only certain facets of that prism will be visible at any one time depending upon where I am and how I [choose to] present. Sometimes that will include the facet of my sex. More often the focus - or the facets I choose to present to the world - are my AuDHD, my loyal nature, the importance I attach to my role as a mother, to the fact that I come from a multi-faith/racial extended family, my love for music and literature. These are all far, far more a part of my sense of ‘who I am’, than my sexed body. My sexed body is almost incidental, in the same way I don’t identify as a ‘brunette’ or as an ‘average height, size 10 bodied person’. They are just physical facts of my being.

And I don’t think I am alone, or even in the minority, in perceiving myself in this way.

Helleofabore · 27/04/2025 11:47

ArabellaScott · 27/04/2025 11:43

If you're positing these words or ideas as categories then I'd like to hear your definition of them. I dont know which I fit in, until you do.

Considering we do have a definition of biological sex already in law.

If gender is being treated as something that is of substance, such as biological sex, then surely there must be a legal definition.

ArabellaScott · 27/04/2025 11:47

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:45

We were talking about the concepts of masculinity and femininity, they aren’t categories that you fit into or not?

Well, exactly! So how is 'gender' a meaningful category in that case?

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 27/04/2025 11:48

Helleofabore · 27/04/2025 11:47

Considering we do have a definition of biological sex already in law.

If gender is being treated as something that is of substance, such as biological sex, then surely there must be a legal definition.

I would welcome the Supreme Court working on what gender identity is!

Cos you can't make law based on feelz.

ArabellaScott · 27/04/2025 11:50

ArabellaScott · 27/04/2025 11:47

Well, exactly! So how is 'gender' a meaningful category in that case?

'Gender' is precisely 'masculinity' and 'femininity'. That is exactly what it is.

Any concept of 'trans' is based on 'gender'.

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:53

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/04/2025 11:45

Ah, but this doesn't mean a great deal if everyone is using these terms to mean different things.

Being a woman is an important part of my identity but it is sex based, not gender based. I can't think of a single way in which womanhood forms a part of my identity which isn't directly related to my female biology. As such, I don't feel that I have a gender identity and although I accept that others do, I don't really understand what one is.

I have no idea what trans women are identifying with but I am crystal clear about the fact that we don't share any kind of identity.

I'm extremely wary of any attempt to say that we all have a gender identity because this leads us back down the path of women and trans women being considered a coherent grouping, which in my view it isn't.

I can only explain it in terms of how gender affects my identity. Here’s an example. I have small breasts. When I was younger, that caused me a great deal of distress, because I felt that I wasn’t feminine enough; it felt like it meant I was less of a woman. The fact of having breasts (or being typically expected to have them) was an aspect of being biologically a woman. But how my particular anatomy made me feel about myself and my value as a person is an aspect of my gender identity - how I feel about being a woman.

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:54

Helleofabore · 27/04/2025 11:47

Considering we do have a definition of biological sex already in law.

If gender is being treated as something that is of substance, such as biological sex, then surely there must be a legal definition.

There isn’t a legal definition of race, but it’s still an important concept in the EA

Needspaceforlego · 27/04/2025 11:55

Datun · 27/04/2025 09:42

All this. And you've got men claiming their entire lives are utterly over and they're crying themselves to sleep because they've got to find a fucking unisex toilet??!

Edited

Aye the same men who could easily lift their skirt up and use a blinking urinals

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/04/2025 11:55

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:53

I can only explain it in terms of how gender affects my identity. Here’s an example. I have small breasts. When I was younger, that caused me a great deal of distress, because I felt that I wasn’t feminine enough; it felt like it meant I was less of a woman. The fact of having breasts (or being typically expected to have them) was an aspect of being biologically a woman. But how my particular anatomy made me feel about myself and my value as a person is an aspect of my gender identity - how I feel about being a woman.

Ok.

Do you think you share a gender identity with other people?

frenchnoodle · 27/04/2025 11:55

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:53

I can only explain it in terms of how gender affects my identity. Here’s an example. I have small breasts. When I was younger, that caused me a great deal of distress, because I felt that I wasn’t feminine enough; it felt like it meant I was less of a woman. The fact of having breasts (or being typically expected to have them) was an aspect of being biologically a woman. But how my particular anatomy made me feel about myself and my value as a person is an aspect of my gender identity - how I feel about being a woman.

So the bigger your breasts are the more feminine you feel?

That's a perfect description, really highlights the details.

Merrymouse · 27/04/2025 11:56

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:38

We are specifically talking about what is permitted under the EA. I can’t see any reference to that Act in the tribunal decision

You seem confused about the EA.

There are many situations where it is legal to discriminate. For instance a sports team can have rules about membership eligibility based on association with a particular place.

However, the default is that you can't discriminate on the basis of a protected characteristic listed in the EA.

In some circumstances listed in the EA this can be dis-applied - so it is legal to ban women from a men's shed group.

That doesn't mean that shed groups must be sex segregated, or that you can't have a mixed sex shed group for people who served in the armed forces.

LonginesPrime · 27/04/2025 11:59

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:41

Please point me to the relevant paragraph of the decision

Here you go - para 25 onwards of the original decision.

IIRC, I don’t think it was dealt with in the subsequent challenge by Mermaids as they didn’t have the standing to challenge anything, and so the actual challenge they were trying to make was irrelevant.

Tomatotater · 27/04/2025 12:02

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/04/2025 11:55

Ok.

Do you think you share a gender identity with other people?

So what you are saying is that men feel they should be women because they'd like their own pair of tits? That's just as reductive as saying they feel like women because they like wearing dresses, or because they don't like football. A gender identity is entirely based around reductive sexual stereotypes. It is these that need to go. You are still a woman if you have small beasts. Men's attitudes to small breasts needs to change. Being upset because you have small breasts is not an aspect of womanhood that needs celebrating as something positive if only you could stop feeling upset about it by saying you were a man.
Edit sorry this was to @Namechangeforobviousreasons100

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/04/2025 12:04

Tomatotater · 27/04/2025 12:02

So what you are saying is that men feel they should be women because they'd like their own pair of tits? That's just as reductive as saying they feel like women because they like wearing dresses, or because they don't like football. A gender identity is entirely based around reductive sexual stereotypes. It is these that need to go. You are still a woman if you have small beasts. Men's attitudes to small breasts needs to change. Being upset because you have small breasts is not an aspect of womanhood that needs celebrating as something positive if only you could stop feeling upset about it by saying you were a man.
Edit sorry this was to @Namechangeforobviousreasons100

Edited

I don't think you meant to quote me.

IDareSay · 27/04/2025 12:04

On the issue of driving licences in the UK, I can't recall if they have ever had M or F on them, but your sex is recorded in rather a convoluted way:

https://uktrans.info/legislation/41-name-and-gender-record-changes/63-your-photocard-driving-licence-explained/

Interim guidance from EHRC is out
Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/04/2025 12:06

SameyMcNameChange · 27/04/2025 09:54

Yes, but they do share the characteristic of being women. Which allows the exclusion of all men.

For the next step (the exclusion of exclusively heterosexual women) it doesn’t matter that lesbian and bi are not the same sexual orientation. It matters that the entire group of people being excluded share the same sexual orientation (opposite sex attracted) AND that that exclusion is a proportionate means of obtaining a legitimate aim.

Yes, all bisexual people are same sex attracted, just like all gay men and lesbian women are.

NotAtMyAge · 27/04/2025 12:06

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:31

Do you own a dictionary? Or I’m sure google could assist, if you want definitions

The dictionary definition is irrelevant when what is being asked is how you personally understand the concepts of masculinity and femininity

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/04/2025 12:07

So surely you could have an organisation for same sex attracted people or for same sex attracted female people.

CautiousLurker01 · 27/04/2025 12:10

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:53

I can only explain it in terms of how gender affects my identity. Here’s an example. I have small breasts. When I was younger, that caused me a great deal of distress, because I felt that I wasn’t feminine enough; it felt like it meant I was less of a woman. The fact of having breasts (or being typically expected to have them) was an aspect of being biologically a woman. But how my particular anatomy made me feel about myself and my value as a person is an aspect of my gender identity - how I feel about being a woman.

But your ‘gender identity’ isn’t affecting you - your skewed and negative feelings about having small breasts, and this apparently being ‘unfeminine’, are affecting how you feel about your sexed body? What is impacting you is fucked up social media fed narratives about ‘ideal’ body shapes; what is impacting you is patriarchally imbued cultural narratives about what is ‘feminine’. It’s like a recent thread about a woman wondering whether she should get breast implants so that she looks ‘hotter’ for future, unknown male partners. Just totally fucking sad.

Merrymouse · 27/04/2025 12:11

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/04/2025 11:24

It does say that trans women aren't lesbians though.

So a group that included trans women wouldn't be a lesbian group, and wouldn't be able to exclude men or claim that it had suffered discrimination because it was a lesbian group.

However, that wouldn't make the group illegal.

It might be misleading to call it a lesbian group if it hadn't made its terms of membership clear, but I don't think that would be directly covered by the EA (other legislation perhaps - trading standards if they had asked for money?)

[Editing to add: Actually, I'm pretty sure a village hall wouldn't be able to refuse a booking from a self identified lesbian group because one of their members was a trans woman and the PC of sexuality is no longer relevant)

LonginesPrime · 27/04/2025 12:23

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 11:53

I can only explain it in terms of how gender affects my identity. Here’s an example. I have small breasts. When I was younger, that caused me a great deal of distress, because I felt that I wasn’t feminine enough; it felt like it meant I was less of a woman. The fact of having breasts (or being typically expected to have them) was an aspect of being biologically a woman. But how my particular anatomy made me feel about myself and my value as a person is an aspect of my gender identity - how I feel about being a woman.

Isn’t this just an example of how trans activists use the unfortunately prevalent impossible beauty standards to convince potential trans allies that they too have a (‘cis’) gender identity, though?

Most people can relate to feeling like they don’t meet societal beauty standards, so if a trans activist asks “haven’t you ever felt ‘less womanly’ as a result of your body?”, every woman will recall some time they felt self-conscious after they went out without makeup on or had smaller breasts or a fatter bum than a friend.

And then the activist ‘educates’ the woman that this feeling is what trans people know as ‘gender identity’, and this makes perfect sense to the woman, as they have identified a feeling to do with how women’s bodies relate to society and the activist has given it a label.

Thus women who are insecure about their own bodies start believing that this insecurity is actually ‘cis privilege’, now that a much wiser trans person had educated them.

SameyMcNameChange · 27/04/2025 12:26

LonginesPrime · 27/04/2025 11:59

Here you go - para 25 onwards of the original decision.

IIRC, I don’t think it was dealt with in the subsequent challenge by Mermaids as they didn’t have the standing to challenge anything, and so the actual challenge they were trying to make was irrelevant.

I think that says promoting the rights of LGB people is fine as a distinct object. It does not discuss who can and cannot be a member of such an association (because I assume the LGB alliance does not prohibit anyone from being and employee/member?)

JanesLittleGirl · 27/04/2025 12:36

NotAtMyAge · 27/04/2025 11:23

Being over 70 I have to renew my driving licence every 3 years and have just done so. There is no mention of M/F anywhere on my new licence, so the only thing that could be of any use for a GRC would be proof of using a new name, which anyone can do at any time without legal formalities in the UK.

The sex marker is the seventh character of your driver number. 0/1 = Male. 5/6 = Female.

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2025 12:40

Lovelyview · 26/04/2025 21:00

You have been on Mumsnet for a while yet you have no sympathy for the victims of sexual assault being confronted by men - and they clearly are men - in toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, prisons. No sympathy for disabled woman being told they have to receive intimate care from a man in a dress. Women have cried themselves to sleep because men abuse women and that is the reason we have single sex spaces. Stop your whinging and get on with your life as best you can. That's what women do.

What have you been doing for the last decade? Getting on with your life as best you can?

No. You've dedicated it to destroying trans people's access to healthcare and protection from discrimination.

Just find a new hobby for christ's sake.

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 27/04/2025 12:41

SameyMcNameChange · 27/04/2025 12:26

I think that says promoting the rights of LGB people is fine as a distinct object. It does not discuss who can and cannot be a member of such an association (because I assume the LGB alliance does not prohibit anyone from being and employee/member?)

Exactly. Even if they did exclude straight people from being members, the tribunal wouldn’t have considered the EA issue unless it was raised (and I’m not sure if anyone up until now has clocked the fact that the EA technically prohibits exclusively LGB associations).

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