Page 11 | Bridget Philipson- TW should use toilets according to biological Sex.

LizzieSiddal · 2025-04-22T07:19:55+00:00

On R4 at 7.50!! She said she spoke on behalf of the government, they welcome the judgement and it is now clear, provision must be based on Biological Sex! Apologies for posting then running (have an appt to get to). but didn’t see another thread on this. (If you have the sounds App you should easily beable to go to 7.50 and listen)

FlakyCritic · 22/04/2025 12:46

Nominative · 22/04/2025 09:17

That's going to cause a bit of embarrassment when the people ordered out turn out to be women.

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🙄Oh the 'women will be thrown out' bs line. Just give up.

RobinEllacotStrike · 22/04/2025 12:49

Yeah the "women will be harmed by keeping toilets single sex" is some properly stupid magical thinking - so many are repeating it though.

MarieDeGournay · 22/04/2025 12:51

Keha · 22/04/2025 12:31

Im a taller, more muscular woman who tends to dress in quite typically masculine ways eg jeans and hoodie. I would feel pretty embarrassed if someone challenges me in a woman's toilet and asks me if I'm a man. I'm not going to thank them for it. And then, how do I prove I'm a woman if they don't believe me? Maybe I'll get a badge.

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I've been briskly informed 'You're in the Ladies you know' because of my somewhat butch appearance, Keha.

[a] I understand why, and don't mind .
[b] I reply with a smile and 'Yes thanks I know!' and am immediately recognised as a woman because of everything else about me apart from my short hair and 'masculine' jeans-and-hoodies style of clothing.

Really, Keha, it's not a big deal when it happens, and there is something comforting in knowing that women are keeping a protective eye out for each other in our spaces.

FlakyCritic · 22/04/2025 12:57

WorriedMutha · 22/04/2025 09:20

I'm sure some of them will @Nominative but they can be confronted and the buzz they get from being able to lord it over you has gone with their entitlement. A man can walk into a children's changing room or a breastfeeding rest room or a room with a 'staff only' sign. They can't be stopped without a risky physical confrontation but their entitlement has gone. Most will tow the line. Eddie Izzard has used the ladies loo but whilst he is still trying to forge a political career for himself, I expect he will be giving it a swerve. They are now going to have to learn to navigate the gents and the power balance has shifted.
We are seeing the death throes of this oppressive movement and I'm sure the strategic thinkers amongst them will be scheming but now that no debate has been seen off, they are going to have to change public opinion and so far they haven't demonstrated that they possess the skill set.

If the 'rallies' where they were urinating on feminist monuments and writing 'fag' on it is anything to go by, I don't think trans are going to turn this around. People see these filth and are instantly aghast. They really are their own worst enemies. But it's good for us feminists that they keep showing their true selves to the public.

cardibach · 22/04/2025 12:58

Felinnefine · 22/04/2025 12:36

I’ve not said anything of the sort. They were better than Labour though, on this issue. We have the receipts, as they say.

The only people here who keep referring to such things, seems to be people protecting Labour and Starmer. ‘Move on’? That’s laughable for people who continually say ‘but the last 14 years..’ hey ho

This is about Starmer and Labour not any other party. And how he needs to provide a statement retracting his previous statements about women having penises (for example), and apologise for the consequences of his party’s ’previous’ position on this. As I have mentioned above in more detail.

Not sure why that’s difficult to grasp.

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Better how? What did they actually DO in their 14 years In power, during which all this really became an issue?
Edit to add: banging on about wanting an apology when Starmer has clearly said he welcomes the clarity the judgement brings just feels like trying to make it a party political thing.

SternJoyousBee · 22/04/2025 13:01

Nettleteaser101 · 22/04/2025 11:46

Wonder what that bloke Eddie Izzard thinks.

To hang with Eddie. I need to know what a Drag Queen thinks

Gas Lisa Nandy said anything yet?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 22/04/2025 13:01

Bruisername · 22/04/2025 12:39

Slightly off topic but is the gap legally required for H&S?

my work loos have floor to ceiling doors on the cubicles and it’s always made me a bit nervous!!

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Not legally required, afaik, but really, really
necessary.

jodolun · 22/04/2025 13:04

The whole line that non gender conforming women or tall women etc will be harassed as a result of this is bullshit. Women know a man or a woman when they see one, being tall or how feminine they present has nothing to do with it. Even supposedly passing transwomen such as Blaire White look obviously male in real life without the smoke and mirrors they can employ online. Its even possible to tell which sex a person is just from how they move, there have been studied done on this. Humans can tell which sex a person is.

Felinnefine · 22/04/2025 13:04

cardibach · 22/04/2025 12:58

Better how? What did they actually DO in their 14 years In power, during which all this really became an issue?
Edit to add: banging on about wanting an apology when Starmer has clearly said he welcomes the clarity the judgement brings just feels like trying to make it a party political thing.

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Edit to add: banging on about wanting an apology when Starmer has clearly said he welcomes the clarity the judgement brings just feels like trying to make it a party political thing.

Well that says it all about you and your lens I’m afraid.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 22/04/2025 13:06

Slothtoes · 22/04/2025 12:32

Glad to see this thread. NRTFT but I am worried by what I have read on BBC News coverage of this interview with BP. Will the government start advising businesses and services to simply offer gender neutral toilets provision as a response to the recent Supreme Court decision?

The ministers are not saying ‘but you must also continue to provide single sex women’s toilets’. Obviously we don’t know what EHRC will advise yet, but I am concerned that the government is ‘getting ahead’ on this issue like this in the media. I don’t want men in women’s toilets, and I don’t want women’s toilets to be given away to be gender neutral spaces either. Women’s toilets are our spaces that we need as women. I don’t care at all what gender anyone wants to perform in there as long as they are female.

Gender neutral toilets do NOT provide any equivalent to women’s single sex toilets. It’s about women being able to be privately only in the company of other women. And GN toilets are horrible. No women want to be mopping men’s piss before they or their kids can use public toilets, nor should we have to deal with men leaving the GN cubicle door open so we have to walk in unbeknownst and see them using the toilets.

Following all the years of strife to get to this excellent Supreme Court decision of 2025 re Equality Act 2010, it would be a tragic consequence if women’s toilets start disappearing. I think single sex women’s toilets are under threat.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y42zzwylvo
Bridget Phillipson managed a women’s refuge before becoming an MP, and yet even she seems to be saying that gender neutral is the way forward. This is so wrong. It’s fine to have a third space toilet where that can be accommodated, but it’s absolutely not fine to remove women’s single sex provision entirely. Nor to relabel that as ‘gender neutral’ which I can see many cash-strapped businesses doing.

And. which will cause an outrage amongst some men, it needs to be argued loudly that if any single sex provision must be removed to accommodate third spaces, then the provision to be removed must only be taken away from men’s single sex toilets provision. Not from the women’s toilets- women have a lot more reason to need a single sex spaces.

I’m going to keep banging @Keeptoiletssafe’s drum for her - in addition to women deserving single-sex spaces, it’s one of the best ways of keeping toilets safe while keeping them private. If you make public toilets mixed-sex, people want floor-to-ceiling doors on cubicles for privacy. But if you collapse, or are getting raped, in a cubicle with floor-to-ceiling doors, no one will know and be able to help you.

Single-sex, with a door gap, appears to be the option that allows for the most privacy and most safety.

Keeptoiletssafe · 22/04/2025 13:08

WarriorN · 22/04/2025 12:45

very much all of the above.

as pp have said, and @Keeptoiletssafehas spent a lot of time setting out, fully contained unisex loos without gaps aren’t safe for other health reasons.

its also a situation whereby the more of these toilets that are built, the more there will be awful data on instances of people collapsing in them and not being noticed.

True safeguarding anticipates risk and puts measures into place to minimise those risks. It will be very difficult to reverse once these spaces are created.

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Thank you! People seem to be getting the message.

We need as few of these mixed sex PRIVATE toilets as possible.

I have loads of examples of children and women being assaulted in them and also people collapsing and not being found in time. I try and not highlight individual examples but I think this one is anonymised enough: a 12 year old girl was led into a private toilet cubicle and raped at Kings Cross without anyone raising an alarm. The brave girl reported it later.

If you want to depress yourselves there’s loads of examples on the internet. Nightclubs are particularly bad.

Merrymouse · 22/04/2025 13:08

cardibach · 22/04/2025 12:58

Better how? What did they actually DO in their 14 years In power, during which all this really became an issue?
Edit to add: banging on about wanting an apology when Starmer has clearly said he welcomes the clarity the judgement brings just feels like trying to make it a party political thing.

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Agree. They only really started to back track after the Karen White incident, but didn’t actually do much.

I think Labour has just very quickly learned the same lesson because Starmer is fundamentally pragmatic.

The EA was created by Parliament and there was no need to wait 15 years to find out what it actually meant (reminds me of waiting for the answer to life the universe and everything in Hitchhiker’s Guide)

SternJoyousBee · 22/04/2025 13:09

If it wasn’t for you pesky women shakes fistin

Bridget Philipson- TW should use toilets according to biological Sex.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/04/2025 13:10

KEEP MUMSNET OUT OF POLITICS

viques · 22/04/2025 13:12

Datun · 22/04/2025 12:44

That will be the (entirely imaginary) urinary leash.

Best start campaigning for your own loos...

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Or more trees in public places, which in my experience seems to be the go to alternative for men who can’t be arsed to find a public toilet.

Lyannaa · 22/04/2025 13:13

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/04/2025 13:10

KEEP MUMSNET OUT OF POLITICS

Since when? Who made you the boss of what can and can’t be talked about on Mumsnet?

SternJoyousBee · 22/04/2025 13:18

Merrymouse · 22/04/2025 12:26

I don’t doubt it.

Given what he has said so far, I would imagine that he would like to be denied access so that he can go to tribunal.

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….and lose

WarriorN · 22/04/2025 13:18

Keeptoiletssafe · 22/04/2025 13:08

Thank you! People seem to be getting the message.

We need as few of these mixed sex PRIVATE toilets as possible.

I have loads of examples of children and women being assaulted in them and also people collapsing and not being found in time. I try and not highlight individual examples but I think this one is anonymised enough: a 12 year old girl was led into a private toilet cubicle and raped at Kings Cross without anyone raising an alarm. The brave girl reported it later.

If you want to depress yourselves there’s loads of examples on the internet. Nightclubs are particularly bad.

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that’s horrific

viques · 22/04/2025 13:23

Nettleteaser101 · 22/04/2025 11:46

Wonder what that bloke Eddie Izzard thinks.

I imagine that all these pictures and talk about piss are making him think , “hmmm yellow and orange are strong colours for spring and will suit my skin tone. Maybe a little skirt and jacket with some red shoes to accessorise.”

Forgettingblue · 22/04/2025 13:26

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 22/04/2025 12:37

Gender neutral facilities have issues. I used the local swimming pool with a gender neutral “changing village” I was met with a naked man at his locker who apparently “forgot his towel” who was so embarrassed he stood there and said “bet thats woke you up”. I reported him to the police - who to be fair were very good trying to track him down and keeping me informed. But gender neutral areas are not the answer.

I don't like them either. They've switched to these in my local leisure centre. I was in the changing room after swimming with my young kids and a large group of male teenagers came in and were running around, swearing, shouting, 'fighting' each other and throwing things around. Its intimidating, and feeling backed into a corner in small cubicle does not make you feel safer. I very much doubt that they would have dared behave like that in a changing room with adult men in. They knew they could get away with it as they knew at that time the pool is largely used by women with kids.

As we got into the car I did see the male staff throwing those teenagers out.

The only design of mixed changing space I liked was in an old victorian pool where the changing rooms were individual cubicles situated around the actual pool, so its very public and very observed by everyone, so it would be extremely hard for someone to do something out of line there.

Keeptoiletssafe · 22/04/2025 13:27

What a day to be out working! Apologies if I am not able to answer questions. This is rushed:

Document T 2024 (public toilets) clearly states single sex toilets are what venues, offices etc should have unless there’s no room (like a small cafe). If there’s lots of room, then you have single sex toilets AND then a universal one. I am paraphrasing but Google Document T.

You can thank Kemi Badenoch for pushing with this.

However, what is really annoying, is that the single sex toilets DONT mention door gaps. They need to.

Also you can use the universal design for single sex toilets. The universal design shows full height doors. Even the ambulant one which ironically is for people who are frail etc and more likely to end up on the floor without being noticed.

The HSE confirmed to me door gaps can be on the single sex ones they just didn’t (forgot to???) put them on. They also need to make sure single sex ones using the universal design specify door gaps.

Remember these universal toilets and single sex toilets have a safety mechanism to open the doors outwards because of the very fact you can’t open a door inwards when there’s a body in the way. (So a locked cubicle isn’t 100% secure). Door gaps offer the best chance of seeing someone and getting someone out in time to use a defibrillator successfully.

I believe they prevent people assaulting other people inside them in the first place.

Forgettingblue · 22/04/2025 13:29

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/04/2025 13:10

KEEP MUMSNET OUT OF POLITICS

Gosh, you really don't like women being proved right, do you?

PachacutisBadAuntie · 22/04/2025 13:29

Lyannaa · 22/04/2025 13:13

Since when? Who made you the boss of what can and can’t be talked about on Mumsnet?

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@Lyannaa @Forgettingblue it's a joke

cardibach · 22/04/2025 13:30

Felinnefine · 22/04/2025 13:04

Edit to add: banging on about wanting an apology when Starmer has clearly said he welcomes the clarity the judgement brings just feels like trying to make it a party political thing.

Well that says it all about you and your lens I’m afraid.

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What? That I’m more interested in what’s actually happening than scoring party political points about it because that’s what matters to actual women in the actual world? Probably

Bruisername · 22/04/2025 13:30

Keeptoiletssafe · 22/04/2025 13:27

What a day to be out working! Apologies if I am not able to answer questions. This is rushed:

Document T 2024 (public toilets) clearly states single sex toilets are what venues, offices etc should have unless there’s no room (like a small cafe). If there’s lots of room, then you have single sex toilets AND then a universal one. I am paraphrasing but Google Document T.

You can thank Kemi Badenoch for pushing with this.

However, what is really annoying, is that the single sex toilets DONT mention door gaps. They need to.

Also you can use the universal design for single sex toilets. The universal design shows full height doors. Even the ambulant one which ironically is for people who are frail etc and more likely to end up on the floor without being noticed.

The HSE confirmed to me door gaps can be on the single sex ones they just didn’t (forgot to???) put them on. They also need to make sure single sex ones using the universal design specify door gaps.

Remember these universal toilets and single sex toilets have a safety mechanism to open the doors outwards because of the very fact you can’t open a door inwards when there’s a body in the way. (So a locked cubicle isn’t 100% secure). Door gaps offer the best chance of seeing someone and getting someone out in time to use a defibrillator successfully.

I believe they prevent people assaulting other people inside them in the first place.

Back to my work loos - of the 5 floor to ceiling doors only one is outward opening! It is a single sex toilet so no need for full height. Perhaps I should raise this - thank you!

my work have resolved this by having single cubicle toilets in one area and have pointed people there instead of the ladies