Transmen

[southbiscay]

There has been a lot of discussion online about which toilets transmen can use. Especially due to the part of the judgement which suggests that it may be legal to exclude them from women’s toilets, and they may not be able to legally use the men’s either.

Going back to basics, the protected characteristic of sex in the equality act does not permit discrimination between men and women. However, there is an exception whereby you can discriminate if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. When a service provider uses the exemption, it is generally in order to provide a female only space because that can very easily be shown to be a legitimate aim. The corollary of providing a female toilet is that another toilet is needed for men, thus creating a male toilet. But it was never the original objective to create a male toilet, it is just a result of having created a female one. So on that possibly dodgy reasoning, would it be legal for a service provider to provide one female toilet and one mixed sex toilet? Because if it is then it would appear to solve the transman question. I know there have been plenty of service providers who have thought it perfectly reasonable to convert the women’s toilets to an all gender toilet and keep the men’s as the men’s. I doubt this was ever legal, but would it be legal the other way round? I’m not saying that men would be happy with this as a solution, but frankly, I don’t care given we’ve been expected to put up with the reverse. What I do care about is leaving transmen with no realistic solution.

Hoping those with much more of a handle on this than I do, can shed some light on it.

We do. And no one has said on any post they want trans men not to use them. I know some already do use them because male toilets can be intimidating for them.

In my experience a lot of men do not want women to come into their toilets as a regular thing. They might not be afraid as such, but they do feel it's an invasion of privacy. They might also feel that it puts them in a vulnerable position in terms of being accused of inappropriate behaviour.

There are also religious men who aren't allowed to share mixed sex toilets, something many people seem to understand applies to some women - it's not just women, the same applies to males.

That being said, obviously a very well passing TM is unlikely to be rumbled in the men's, and I suspect no one would make a fuss even if they suspected. In an ideal world such people should be able to use the women's but clearly that would raise questions in some circumstances.

I would also say, that this is a human created problem, caused by doing experimental and unevidenced treatments without considering the problematic social consequences.

Wow... I am not going to lie... this really makes things strange..

Born female but presenting male... need to use the male toilets..

Born male but presenting female... need to use the male toilets..

This doesn't make any sense to me... neither does Maya Forstater's comment.

Born female but presenting male... need to use the male toilets..

It’s not about “presenting male” it’s about women who make such significant cosmetic changes to their bodies with hormones and surgeries that nobody can tell anymore that they are female. This won’t apply to most masculine presenting females. It will be a small minority who probably would rather pee in a bush than use the ladies anyway.

It's because it's about several different things.

It's about creating a safe/dignified space for women, and also the perception that the space is safe.

Transmen don't make washroom unsafe. But they could, if they are actually indistinguishable from men visually, make it look like it's not. (Note: most are not, they look like transmen, not men.)

Basically, we as a society have created a situation where theoretically some might not fit clearly into either provision. In practice they'd probably pass in the men's, but with the caveat that some other men might feel violated if they did know.

Women could always use the Mens I thought? Back when I was young we would all use the Mens when the queue for the one Women's toilet got too big. Luckily women's toilets became more plentiful when they got built.

Transmen won't have periods so that cuts out a lot of the need I would have thought.

Could we just have individual toilets that anyone can use.
Should we not change a toilet to suit the people?

Those men's bathrooms are going to be pretty crowded with the MTF and FTM transpeople in them.

I think this depends on how the law affects toilets.

IANAL but I don't think it's specifically illegal to use an opposite sex toilet - usually I think the worst that would happen would be that you would be told 'sorry this is the men's' and asked to leave.

It is legal to exclude somebody from a toilet on the basis of sex, but if somebody looked indistinguishably male would this happen?

No. We want men to stay out of women's spaces. Men can decide for themselves who is writing into their spaces.

Men can decide for themselves who is welcome into their spaces.

Basically, we as a society have created a situation where theoretically some might not fit clearly into either provision.

Have we? Or have we created a situation where some people are expected to take responsibility for other people's choices?

I think there's a parallel with facial tattoos and body modding. If you choose to make yourself look like you don't fit, why do you expect others to fit around you?

Yes we NEED women's toilets but there isn't an equivalent need for men's.
Let me explain. I'm not referring to the fact that men can (and do) pee in public. I'm referring to the fact that men do not need their own spaces to avoid or get away from us. In fact I'm sure that men only have toilets because WE don't want to see them using them!
(Having been to France, I know that we can't always avoid seeing them anyway.)
Therefore all male toilets could and should be made all-gender.
If we don't want to see them using urinals (& most of us don't!) we can avoid them, but (a) tm and tw can use them and, more important personally, (b) we CAN use them if and when necessary.
Sorted!

Born female but presenting male... need to use the male toilets..

The SC judgment did not state that biological females presenting as male should use the single-sex men’s toilets - it said that there are circumstances in which they could be legitimately excluded from women-only spaces (para 221).

Obviously, if a transmen passes, they would likely just go in the men’s anyway, but organisations would need to consider providing a third space for other transmen in order not to discriminate against them by not providing an appropriate space for them.

I would say both of those are true. My statement wasn't really a moral claim, it was just an observation. We have said this is the appropriate treatment for certain problems, and that treatment means some people may find some social situations awkward to navigate. There really isn't a great option for a female person who has taken steps to really appear to be a man. They still have many of the vulnerabilities of women, but will no longer easily fit in with groups of women. Rather like the situation with Freddy and the walking club.

Now, if these individuals had been counselled properly, they would I hope have spent some time thinking about the potential consequences of choices like this. What's really unfortunate is that quite a few people have been led to believe that there would not be trade offs and that society has moral and legal obligations that it, in fact, does not. There are a lot of transmen in particular who I find to be be quite vulnerable and struggle with social interactions and insight, who frankly I think should never have been allowed to transition, it's made them much more fragile.

Yeah, I have to say though, I feel for organizations on this.

Lots of businesses and venues are small and run on very thin margins, they have a men's and women's toilet, and have probably tried to squeeze in an accessible one too, which is not always easy as they require good clearances. And they need these spaces but there is no question they are expensive.

And now they are supposed to spend a few thousand dollars and square footage to add another washroom space? For what is a situation that has no medical support for it as a treatment?

well i, for one, am fine with trans men using the ladies.

There is a caveat - they need to be prepared to be challenged on that. Because it is their modifications to their body (beards for eg) that makes them not look like most women.

Frankly? Most trans men, IME, don't actually pass.

There are a lot of transmen in particular who I find to be be quite vulnerable and struggle with social interactions and insight, who frankly I think should never have been allowed to transition, it's made them much more fragile.

I think the same applies to many trans-identifying men, particularly the younger ones. It certainly does to those I know personally. Socially awkward, emotionally fragile, unconfident young men - actually very sweet, good-natured young men - and really no different after transitioning. The only difference is that their good-nature has disappeared they now express entitlement. Their confidence is all built upon the expectation that they can now have what they didn't know they wanted.

Reading the judgement, it seems that we can exclude transmen, as well as all biological men from our toilets.

Contrary to a lot of posters, I do think a lot of men don't want women in their toilets, for reasons @TempestTost has articulated better than I can.

As sex re-assignment is also a protected characteristic would this mean employers for e.g. would need to provide a gender neutral space as I'm assuming they couldn't say 'oh sorry you can't us either toilet. Hard cheese.'

@PriOn1 "I suspect some men have believed they passed as women on the grounds that they had never been challenged in single sex spaces."
I think this is happening in the reverse, as well.
I don't think there are many, if any, stealth passing trans men. Sexual assault of trans men is sadly incredibly common.
Trans men are largely invisible politically, to the trans women that are the driving force of trans rights activism. Wheeled out when a non-threatening visage is needed - precisely because trans men are so obviously not male.
I think this myth of the passing trans men only makes these vulnerable women more vulnerable.

"well i, for one, am fine with trans men using the ladies.
There is a caveat - they need to be prepared to be challenged on that. Because it is their modifications to their body (beards for eg) that makes them not look like most women.
Frankly? Most trans men, IME, don't actually pass"

I agree with this @Brefugee There's a whole generation of young adults who've been damaged by this movement and will need us to accommodate them where third spaces aren't available.

I also agree that transmen rarely pass on second glance. People passing online is one thing, real life quite another.

The LGBT charities and campaign groups (who have decided they believe in trans ideology) are best placed to work out if self-labelled (i.e. not based on sex) groups may benefit from third space facilities for loos, wards etc.
It isn't up to women to be asked to work this out as we have facilities based on sex, which we are happy are single-sex.
It's not possible for a women to become a man so women dressed however they like, with or without facial hair, can use women's facilities. If they're not comfortable, they can look for third options.
A woman with a beard isn't scary like a man in any outfit pretending to be a woman in women's facilities.

I’m not threatened by a woman on testosterone which has given her a beard and a chunk of her arm sewn onto her genitalia area, she can’t rape me. However I am concerned by the anger that testosterone sometimes gives them. I think ultimately we’ll end up with places having a single toilet, like the disabled loo (but NOT the disabled one like many people keep suggesting, that’s for disabled people) for anyone. And trans identifying women could use that but we know a lot of trans identifying men don’t want that, they want to occupy the ladies. Even when offered a third space, like Dr Upton, who refused it and insisted on his right to use the female changing room.

An ideal toilet set up is in my local cinema. They have a corridor of individual cubicles with a loo and sink in each, labelled male or female so women don’t have to sit in the mess of the previous male occupant, but it would be easy to make a couple of these gender neutral.

I was driving along a village road in Nottinghamshire recently and two men were walking along the verge. I immediately clocked one as a woman, despite her beard and clothing. She was too small, too curvy and sadly walking with a stick, as so many do due to the damage wrecked by testosterone. I said to my hubby did you see them, and he said yes one was a transman weren’t they. And this was in a 10 second space as we drove past. Now, being involved in the GC movement means we know what to look for but I’m guessing the general public, maybe a lady of 80, wouldn’t be able to tell and might be quite frightened by one in the Ladies. So it’s fine for us to say, yes they’re welcome in the ladies, but in reality, should they be?

Yes, I can see your point @kay2000 but where third spaces aren't available, I don't really want to see women using the mens toilet from a purely safeguarding perspective, its not a good idea.