Transmen

[southbiscay]

There has been a lot of discussion online about which toilets transmen can use. Especially due to the part of the judgement which suggests that it may be legal to exclude them from women’s toilets, and they may not be able to legally use the men’s either.

Going back to basics, the protected characteristic of sex in the equality act does not permit discrimination between men and women. However, there is an exception whereby you can discriminate if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. When a service provider uses the exemption, it is generally in order to provide a female only space because that can very easily be shown to be a legitimate aim. The corollary of providing a female toilet is that another toilet is needed for men, thus creating a male toilet. But it was never the original objective to create a male toilet, it is just a result of having created a female one. So on that possibly dodgy reasoning, would it be legal for a service provider to provide one female toilet and one mixed sex toilet? Because if it is then it would appear to solve the transman question. I know there have been plenty of service providers who have thought it perfectly reasonable to convert the women’s toilets to an all gender toilet and keep the men’s as the men’s. I doubt this was ever legal, but would it be legal the other way round? I’m not saying that men would be happy with this as a solution, but frankly, I don’t care given we’ve been expected to put up with the reverse. What I do care about is leaving transmen with no realistic solution.

Hoping those with much more of a handle on this than I do, can shed some light on it.

I would be happy for "third spaces" (single rooms) for several reasons, including:

• they would take away the bad excuse that transwomen are unsafe in men's toilets
• they would increase WC provision for men (most Gents have mostly urinals, which is great until the cubicle or couple of cubicles are occupied and a man is desperate, which happens embarrassingly often for some of us)
• they would save people like me from having sometimes to use disabled access facilities
• they would make it easier to keep communal single sex toilets (with gaps under doors, which have safety advantages in some circumstances)

That last point is perhaps the most important one. I want to keep urinals in the Gents, particularly in pubs and nightclubs, because they are very efficient and save a lot of space for that reason. "Third space" gender neutral toilets in most settings would mean just one additional gender neutral room, which might be smaller than a disabled toilet room. So for clarity in most large buildings, on each floor, I would like there to be:

• Single sex Ladies with an adequate number of cubicles (with gaps under doors), and washing facilities.
• Single sex Gents with urinals and at least one cubicle (with gaps under doors), and washing facilities.
• Disabled toilet room with well designed aids, alarm cord, washing facilities and plenty of space (with full height door).
• "Third space" gender neutral toilet room with washing facilities (with full height door). This might be a suitable space for baby changing and for mother and son or father and daughter.

Smaller buildings, such as cafés or hairdressers, could have either a Ladies and a Gents, or a gender neutral room. Pubs should definitely include a Gents with urinals!

People should all be expected to use either the toilets provided for their sex class, or gender neutral rooms.

Lots of interesting comments. I’d just like to know whether it is legal for, say, a restaurant to provide a women’s toilet and a unisex toilet. I’m not bothered if men don’t like this - welcome to our world of the last 15 years when 99.9% of you either cheered it on or said nothing. We have to accept the reality of many places not having the money or space to provide more than two options and I don’t really want to start living in a world of all unisex toilets, not even single cubicle ones, because men just piss all over the seats.

I agree with this.

• Disabled toilet room with well designed aids, alarm cord, washing facilities and plenty of space (with full height door).
• "Third space" gender neutral toilet room with washing facilities (with full height door). This might be a suitable space for baby changing and for mother and son or father and daughter.

These need to be very, very carefully controlled. Private, mixed sex places in public areas should be minimised as much as possible.

I have read examples of the father/ daughter scenario mistaken in the worst way. Should a man with a girl have more privacy in a toilet room than a woman with a girl?

Personally I would love there to be more wheelchair accessible toilets in the ladies, with door gaps in them for safety if someone collapses, and to prevent assaults.

I think there are drawbacks with most or all solutions. I would not have wanted to take my daughter into the Gents, given the row of urinals with men peeing, and to be honest the occasional man of dubious morals/habits. I was fortunate in not needing to do so. I would not have felt I could take her into the Ladies. As soon as she was old enough, I would have expected her to use the Ladies without help from me. Single fathers with young or disabled (depends on disability, of course) daughters have no good solution available.

I take your point on wheelchair accessible toilet cubicles within single sex facilities. Space would be a problem in some buildings.

There used to be frequent arguments on here about helping opposite sex children to get changed for swimming. I really didn’t like sending my son to get changed alone when he was eight. I think there will always be conflicting needs and it’s important to understand different views (e.g many people haven’t thought about the toilet door safety problem) but solutions based in fantasy e.g. TWAW will always be bad.

Not all males in a toilet are adults, and we are not just talking about toilets are we, we are talking about for example changing rooms. I think it is perfectly reasonable for men to ffel uncomfortable undressing in front of biological women. As for safety, there are many many cases of teenage boys being groomed and sexually abused by female teachers.

Those that really want to be considered a member of the opposite sex go to great lengths to pass and will continue to use the toilets of their chosen sex with no issue as they have done quietly for many years before this “self ID boom”.

My DH is a FTM trans person and will continue to use the men’s toilets as he has done for years. He considers himself to be a man, he has no desire at all to be in women’s spaces and would hate to draw attention himself in anyway. He just goes into a cubicle, does his business and leaves. No need for a fuss.

Not all males in a toilet are adults, and we are not just talking about toilets are we, we are talking about for example changing rooms.

On this thread we are talking about toilets.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for men to ffel uncomfortable undressing in front of biological women.

I agree.

As for safety, there are many many cases of teenage boys being groomed and sexually abused by female teachers.

Through women using the boys' toilets?

I found this thread while trying to find answers, I don't know if anything has been said here already that would answer this. My DS is FTM, from what I've seen of the SC judgement it sounds like they're saying that people need to use the spaces of their assigned sex but everyone has discussed this in terms of MTF. I can't figure out if he would be supposed to be using women's facilities, which would look odd as he's not been mistaken for female for years. He generally uses the accessible toilets or goes to places like Costa where there are individual unisex cubicles, so it's probably not going to impact him personally too much, but there doesn't seem to be things said about transmen so much? If he has to use a larger toilet he goes to the mens without issue - years ago he went to the womens when he was still in the early days of transitioning, and he was shouted at by a woman asking why he was there, so using the womens facilities sounds like a bad idea

Having "women's toilets" and "mixed toilets" opens up another can of worms I think. Some women would naturally enter a room with a sign that says "mixed toilets," but I imagine women wouldn't be happy about entering this room and seeing men using urinals. Or would the hypothetical "mixed toilets" not have urinals at all? Too many questions and I'm not going to try to answer them.

The biggest issue is that everyone (especially the media) is so obsessed with MTF transgender people, that they have quite literally forgotten that FTM transgender people... you know... exist.

To illustrate this, watch 2:30 - 2:40 of the following video (I apologise that there is commentary on the video that many people won't agree with, but I can't find a video without commentary).

When the subject of transgender men is raised at 2:30 - 2:40, the Tory politician literally freezes in position and stops talking. He was so obsessed with transgender women, and was thinking about transgender women constantly, that he never stopped to consider what the legal implications of the supreme court ruling would be for transgender men.