How are you tackling this in real life?

[SpidersAreShitheads]

I’ve had lots of online discussions about the Supreme Court ruling online. I’m also lucky in that I’m self-employed so have never had to hide my GC views.

However I have a gay, male friend who historically has been a very close friend of mine. Politically he’s centre-right. Lets call friend “Kevin”.

About two years ago DP and Kevin had an epic fall-out over Whatsapp and they’ve not spoken since. Long story but it was about women’s rights. Kevin said women’s language didn’t matter and that women were making a fuss. He also refused to accept women were at risk and insisted that the trans community are just like the gay community of the 1980s and being unfairly victimised by the nasty women 🙄 DP was furious because he felt Kevin had shown he didn’t care about the safety of women and girls.

Kevin and I have had debates over the years where he wouldn’t accept that women were at more of a risk (or even equal risk) than gay men eg/when walking home late at night. To be clear, I’ve never dismissed the challenges gay men face nor the fact that in some circumstances, gay men are in danger. We all know that homophobia is sadly only too real. I’ve been a vocal ally over the years. But he has always seemed unwilling to recognise the risks for women.

Interestingly, Kevin has always been adamant that he’d never be intimate with a trans man and he’s actively repulsed by boobs and vaginas. So not accepting trans men as men, but women have to move over and accept trans women as women? 😕

Kevin’s promiscuity has increased as he’s reached his 50s. I think part of his views is that he needs to be seen to be actively supporting trans rights to continue being part of the LGBTQ community - which is obviously essential for his sex life.

I’ve struggled with the friendship because of his views for the last couple of years and we’re no longer close as we were. Some other things unrelated to this have happened but his views are undeniably a factor. He will never recognise my point of view as valid and to me, that feels as if he doesn’t care about the wellbeing of me and my DD.

Tonight he’s shared Pedro Pascale’s post and I snapped and commented publicly. Normally I’d just eye-roll and scroll past.

He’s asleep so hasn’t seen my reply yet. I’m having an internal debate about whether to just delete my comment.

I’m aware that society has gotten very tribal and we should be able to have friends who think differently to us. But this feels so fundamental to me - I’m so utterly sick of society’s misogyny I don’t know if I can just overlook it in someone who’s supposed to be a good friend.

Those of you with GC views, are you as vocal in real life? Or do you just internally eye-roll and ignore? I’m autistic/ADHD and I tend to have big, intense feelings - I really can’t tell if I’m being unreasonable to feel as strongly as I do. Maybe partially being driven by peri rage 🫣😂 Would you just stay quiet? Would you struggle with the friendship?

I’ll attach screenshots. If you know me in RL, please keep this confidential 🙏

Fuck me, that’s long 🫣

It’s a fair comment you’ve made.

Your comment is accurate.

If we don't speak up, who will?

If every woman said "oh someone else will fight for change and advocate for me", then we wouldnt have a single right or the protection that we do.

Yes it is awkward. Yes it is uncomfortable. But we have a duty and a responsibility to provide well reasoned, respectful but strong responses to this.

JK Rowling could have spent the rest of her life on her yacht not giving a shit about women who are less privileged and Would be affected by TRAs.

Instead, she rolled up her sleeves and joined the fight at great personal cost, both financial and also emotionally/mentally and to her safety.

The SC ruling is a call to action, not a time to breathe a sigh of relief.

We don't have power to influence things on a country or world wide scale like JK Rowling, but we can damn well do our bit at home.

It’s imperative that everyone speaks up. This has gone on too long

It's time we all spoke up.

Everything has got so out of hand because people have been afraid to question or criticise a bullying movement.

Everyone has a different situation, so we each do what we can.

But we have people protesting who are openly calling for women to be hanged and killed over this law change. (The president of the UCU claims she's proud of these people.)

That's how far down the road we've gone. This is a violently misogynist movement based on the silencing, ignoring, and dismissing of women.

So we need a bit of bravery to counter the extremism.

If you can, hold.the line.

It sounds like you've been trying to remain friends with Kevin despite your incompatible beliefs for far too long.

It is usually possible to be friends with someone who has different beliefs, for example, for someone who votes Conservative to be friends with someone who votes Labour, or someone who is religious to be friends with an atheist.

But I see this more along the lines of a Jewish person trying to be friends with someone who is antisemitic. Your beliefs are not compatible if their beliefs are that your fundamental rights shouldn't be respected.

Please keep the post up. You may lose him as a friend but what is his friendship bringing you? It doesn’t actually sound as if he likes or respects women - bit of a litmus test. You’ve had to budge up, as women do, to keep him on side but the ruling shows what women achieve when they say no and refuse to budge up.

For me, as @FeministUnderTheCatriarchy said, the ruling is a call to action - I’ve gardened for FWS in the past and I’ve just changed that to a monthly donation - there is so much ‘saying no’ yet to be done. I’ve fought my battles at work, and in the home, and now I wish I’d fought more.

And taking a longer view, teenagers won’t support the ideology for long - it’s already fading in relevance for them - there may be prosecutions for medical negligence, and we will see this mad phase in society in isolation. It will be like Tulipmania or witch hunting. Your friend will be left marooned as he ages supporting a desperately unpopular cause. So he may come round to your way of thinking.

Good for you Kevin sounds insufferable.

Amazed you've limped on this long with him.

I'd say that he's not much of a friend. Are you trying to keep the friendship alive out of sentimentality? Your partner fell out with him long ago, he's not interested in your views, he doesn't listen to you, he just tells you what to think.

I'd leave it to wither away.

Kevin doesn't like women. Kevin sounds like hard work.

I've made a couple of comments to people but not many because at the moment things are weird with me being on holidays.

Sadly, a lot of gay men truly, truly hate women. It's sad, but true. In fact, they find women physically, and emotionally - repulsive. So they cannot empathise with us. Sadly, they don't see us as humans. That is the real truth of it. I used to follow the blog of a gay male in America and he documented his life living with HIV, and with his husband and their dogs. He had tenants, a hetro couple, staying upstairs in his house. He mentioned that the man used to 'knock the woman around' (a quiet woman as he said) a bit. He basically said that women can push men's buttons and 'ask' to be hit. I commented on the blog about how horrible a thing that was to, say, but he didn't care.

I stopped following him after that. Not sure whatever happened to the blog. But I was horrified at the absolute hate and disdain he had for women. I've since seen this attitude to women being battered with other gay males.

Sorry, but I could not be friends with him. Even the most unsocialised male knows how vulnerable women are. Your 'friend' simply doesn't care. Sorry, but he doesn't see you as a human being even. That's the truth.

He doesn't recognise your humanity, your vulnerability, or your rights. Why do you even speak to him, let alone consider him a friend. Take this moment to cut him off permanently. Why keep a male friend like that in your life when he doesn't respect your humanity or needs as a female and human being.

Surely you can respond to the post if you want to engage on this topic? I don’t see why you can’t be friends and disagree.

I’ve not discussed it in real life with too many people, but I have come out this week and strongly responded to a friend who shared something similar.
Interestingly, she admitted she didn’t really know much about the ins and outs of it but hated the thought of trans people being bullied. Talked a lot about “grey areas” etc. She listened to what I had to say and said she will do some reading, which I thought was a positive outcome.

I work in the D&I field and will need to look for another job soon due to redundancies. I can't say or do anything publicly so I try to do things privately (eg a bit of gardening here and there). I'm not sure whether to stay in the D&I field, which I have done for a long time, and which I love, but is increasingly difficult due to the 'T' taking over. Fortunately my current job is focused on one PC which has nothing to do with either sex or gender reassignment, but obviously any new job could be a more broad approach so I need to be careful. My LinkedIn is fucking nuts at the moment with so called DEI and HR experts expressing outrage over the SC decision. As I said, I'm staying quiet.

Very well said 👍🙌🏻

You said he doesn't care about the welfare of you and your daughter and your husband had a massive fall out with him. You don't like the way he conducts his ralationships and he is a hypocrite. I can not see the friendship or where he adds anything positive to your life. Leave the post up, take it down doesn't matter, distance yourself and end the friendship. He really is not going to change his views either way. Don't waste your time and energy.

I'm completely open about my views in real life. I don't bring the topic up myself usually but I do get a lot of "you're a biologist, what do you think about all that gender stuff?". I'm not going to lie to appease people who would drop me over this. It helps that the entire family is on board.
Editing to add that the vast majority of people who asked me were utterly relieved when I said sex is binary and immutable.

Kevin's friendship isn't worth much so leave it up.

When listing the very few places that need to be single sex I would include sport. It's much more relatable than refuges, prisons etc that most people never experience and it's really bloody obvious why men competing against women is unfair and potentially dangerous.

I agree with this. I couldnt be friends with someone who doesnt recognise the danger women are in and have always been in from men. It's utterly repulsive to me.

Sadly, a lot of gay men truly, truly hate women. It's sad, but true. In fact, they find women physically, and emotionally - repulsive. So they cannot empathise with us. Sadly, they don't see us as humans

This has been my experience too with some of my gay male friends/aquaintances and I have never quite understood why. Women are not a threat to gay men so why? Thankfully not all of them are like that but it is a theme I have noticed with some of them and its horrible

I’m just heading to bed for a couple of hours as I’ve been up all night working. I’m out at Easter stuff with DD today but will come back for a proper read through later.

However, I have quickly read through everyone’s comments and I’m grateful for the reassurance. I honestly thought maybe I was just being unnecessarily argumentative 🫣 but it seems not…

I’ve left my comment on his post but switched my notifications off so I can go and check for any replies when I’m in the right frame of mind.

Thank you all 💐

Some great comments. This is the time to speak up. There's a legacy of brave women and men who have lost their careers, friends and and even family members for speaking up for women's rights. Now that the law of the land has been clarified we all need to try to speak out more. Make it clear that the times of bullying, hounding and threatening others for holding legal and reapsonable views has ended.

The only change I would make is to replace the weasel words "male-bodied people" with "men".

OP I think you should leave the post up, and I'll explain why. You know he has views that you disagree with, and yet you have never picked a fight with him or ended the friendship. He's comfortable holding his views publicly, knowing you disagree. But you're afraid of doing the same. It's not an equal friendship if only one of you gets to have an opinion.

Long friendships are fairly precious and not something to let go easily. But if someone really doesn't care about you, you are better with them out of your life. Give him the chance to show how much or how little he respects you.

Your comment was spot on. I’m with you.

Keep the post up. Kevin is a misogynist and not much of a friend. I haven't said much on this issue yet but going back to work next week could be interesting.