Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

Neither of these things, I don’t think. They want to live as transwomen. And not be afraid of being verbally abused or intimidated or assaulted for doing so. The transwomen I know don’t want to infringe on women’s rights. They just want to not face discrimination themselves.

Yep this is my kids, and apparently the ‘trend’ of trans/non-binay is well and truly over.

That’s the youth for you!!!

There is no such thing as intersex, there is no mysterious third sex. Intersex is a completely old fashioned term

people with differences or disorders of sexual development or DSD are still either male or female. Genetic tests are carried out to determines their sex and then later if they choose they may undergo some further treatment to help manage their condition

Feel free to quote the exact place where I say that?
It is lawful to have single sex toilets to protect the privacy and dignity of both sexes. Trans people are able to use the toilets aligned to their sex. That is lawful and in line with a correct interpretation of anti discrimination legislation.
No trans person should be subjected to any harm or harassment for using the toilets aligned to their biological sex and anyone who did attempt harm or harassment should face legal action.

Trans rights are not my fight, but I think the kinder action would be to help as many of them as possible to just be happy as they are, without a need for so many labels. If they can truly accept themselves instead of trying to force the rest of us to parrot lies, they'll be closer to contentment.

I didn't care one way or the other about trans issues before there was a concerted effort to take over women-only spaces, criminalise speaking biological truth as a form of hate speech (or 'literal violence' ), and convince confused or vulnerable young people that they are trans when they're not. I'm happy to go back to that again.

Then Google them. (Other search engines are available).

It's like 1984 - you want a world where no one is free. Horrendous.

Also, nothing like our teens experience of school. Thank goodness

Imvho, saying you are what you believe yourself to be is far more “flat earth” thinking than saying your sex is defined by your biology.

What is so painful about saying what you actually are? The problem is not that you are transgender or intersex - the problem is that people will not accept your existence as valid. You do not change that problem by pretending you are something you are not. If you want acceptance, you have to get people to accept what you actually are, not what you or they want you to be.

I do feel sorry for the people that have been brainwashed since childhood that they can change gender and be whatever they like and that there are 57 genders (or something) and that glitter and rainbows means girls, and tractors and chainsaws means boys, and that blocking your puberty will make you happy and you can stay childlike and not grow into a hairy, imperfect, human adult body, like, forever.

Sorry for the rant. Not sorry.

@HoundOfTheBasketballs
What do you think the middle ground should look like?

A lot of my students (university) are stating their real views now. And a lot of them are gender critical. Things have changed a lot in the last three years. They are not unpleasant to trans people (quite rightly) but they are much more willing these days to state their boundaries and assert that they need their own spaces.

Unfortunately, the problem is the self-serving people in the university who have based their nice careers on pushing theories and policies to promote gender over sex.

'Intersex conditions?'
People with DSDs (differences of esxual development) have asked not to be used as some kind of gotcha in discussions on this topic.
People with DSDs are either male or female - their biological sex may be more difficult to categorise initially but can be medically determined.
Sex IS binary, within each sex there are a whole range of ways people present - its called personality - but their sex is binary and unchanging.

Have you read 1984? I have a somewhat different take on it! One of the most hilarious posts on Mumsnet - thanks for the laugh!

This isn't about hostility to Trans. It just has to start with "woman" bring defined correctly, which relates fo biological sex.

Trans have protection under equality act they can't be discrimated against.

However a woman will now have the right to request intimate exam by a biological woman.

Op, what do you think the issues are for TW? Use of toilets, use of changing rooms? It's actually a very short list of issues that TW face and given they are very focal and active they can now advocate for neutral spaces.

You know what’s like 1984? Redefining the meaning of words so that you can control and manipulate people to your advantage. Left is right, up is down. Men are women. Textbook 1984 that is.

Transpeople are free to live their lives however they like, just not at the expense of women.

You know 1984 is about the populous being told what is true when it's not true, right? And you know men can't become women because they say so, right?

I couldn’t really care less about men’s rights. I certainly don’t care about the rights of fetishists who get a hard on from wearing a skirt and like taking pictures of their penis in the ladies. I do care about vulnerable children whose bodies are stunted and mutilated forever by ‘trans healthcare’ that stops them growing up, cuts off healthy body parts and sterilises them. But mostly I care about the rights of women and girls to be safe and legally permitted to gather in single sex spaces.

In which case, they are unaffected by today’s ruling and should welcome it as it was made clear they are still protected from discrimination under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

Err, have you lived in the current century?

Teens here say that Mumsnet is full or right wing bullshit. In this area they are spot on

I think most people agree that Trans people should be protected from discrimination and have rights but not at the expense of women’s rights and that’s where we were heading.

And they claim to be a teacher!

I don't think you can have read 1984, or understood it.

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”

++++

'How many fingers, Winston?'
'Four! Stop it, stop it! How can you go on? Four! Four!'
'How many fingers, Winston?'
'Five! Five! Five!'
'No, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are four. How many fingers, please?'
'Four! five! Four! Anything you like. Only stop it, stop the pain!'

It's a warning, not a manual.

This seems to match the ruling today though?

Women in single sex spaces, but judge mentioned up-keeping anti discrimination laws.

That’s good then because that’s exactly what the judgment says to be the law.

Thanks for sharing this.
I agree with what you say. I hope you and your daughter are able to find places where she is welcome.
I suppose inevitably there will be an increase in space where trans people are included, whether that is alongside women, or men, or other trans people. Because I don’t think trans people are going to go away.