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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

1000 replies

HoundOfTheBasketballs · 16/04/2025 20:44

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Arran2024 · 16/04/2025 21:44

Springee · 16/04/2025 21:04

Women don't need 'protecting' from trans women. It's the biggest misunderstanding of recent years in this area.

It comes down to whether women require same sex spaces or not.

You might not see the point. You might be happy to share a changing room with a man.

But you can't consent on my behalf.

MotherofPearl · 16/04/2025 21:45

OP, you say:

But why can’t women support transwomen at the same time? Why can’t I say, “I want to be safe, but I want you to be happy and safe too. How can we work towards that together?”

Of course I agree that transwomen should be safe, but it’s not something they should be taking up with women. This is something they should be taking up with men, who are the perpetrators of the violence. It’s really got nothing to do with women as we’re generally not the ones beating up trans people, and so it’s not our problem to solve.

YippetyYapYap · 16/04/2025 21:45

I can relate OP. It’s not just about trans women after all. Trans men? Also, what about intersex conditions as tgey were referred to? I think as long as we’re being so binary about everything it’s going to be painful for someone. It gives me flat earth vibes.

Christwosheds · 16/04/2025 21:45

Springee · 16/04/2025 21:40

Hardly, I'm in the room with them

I’m also in the room with a couple of gen zs , both very happy at this judgement. As are their friends. Particularly the younger ones (17/18) who are fed up with gender nonsense. It’s rapidly becoming outdated.

Igneococcus · 16/04/2025 21:45

Springee · 16/04/2025 21:44

Fair enough, but I know where most teens are at and it's not in the past

Do you think any kid that you teach would actually feel comfortable expressing an opinion that differs from yours? Given how you come across here I very much doubt it.

Historyofwolves · 16/04/2025 21:46

Springee · 16/04/2025 21:44

Fair enough, but I know where most teens are at and it's not in the past

And why does it matter what children think?! Why do you not respond to the actual arguments on the thread?

The cognitive dissonance involved in actually believing people can change sex is outstanding. It's never anything other than performative virtue signalling.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/04/2025 21:46

YippetyYapYap · 16/04/2025 21:45

I can relate OP. It’s not just about trans women after all. Trans men? Also, what about intersex conditions as tgey were referred to? I think as long as we’re being so binary about everything it’s going to be painful for someone. It gives me flat earth vibes.

Hmmm, which is the more “flat earth” position here? “Biological sex is significant”, or “trans women are women”?

AshesofTime · 16/04/2025 21:46

YippetyYapYap · 16/04/2025 21:45

I can relate OP. It’s not just about trans women after all. Trans men? Also, what about intersex conditions as tgey were referred to? I think as long as we’re being so binary about everything it’s going to be painful for someone. It gives me flat earth vibes.

Intersex people (outdated term by the way) are either male or female. They also hate being used in trans arguments. It’s not the same thing at all.

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 16/04/2025 21:47

Igneococcus · 16/04/2025 21:45

Do you think any kid that you teach would actually feel comfortable expressing an opinion that differs from yours? Given how you come across here I very much doubt it.

I doubt they are a teacher

Springee · 16/04/2025 21:47

CaptainFuture · 16/04/2025 21:43

This, I would say the teens I know.. ages 13-19 mix male and female, don't laugh at them, they more feel they are 'cringe' and attention seeking.

So if teen laugh we should be educating them. Plus they are not stupid and their world/generation has far more trans people than in any previous generation so they need to accept

Notaflippinclue · 16/04/2025 21:48

No

VeraWangTea · 16/04/2025 21:48

Not read the whole thread….but I am genuinely interested in the equivalent TRA world are they discussing how to be more sympathetic towards women?

I really hope they are but I worry they are not.

I suspect that it is ‘MN’ ie women’s job to make it all nice.

AshesofTime · 16/04/2025 21:48

Springee · 16/04/2025 21:47

So if teen laugh we should be educating them. Plus they are not stupid and their world/generation has far more trans people than in any previous generation so they need to accept

Educate them not to laugh? Yes. Educate them to pretend men are women even if try way don’t believe it and it has no basis in reality? No.

user2848502016 · 16/04/2025 21:48

AshesofTime · 16/04/2025 21:31

Actually a lot of kids laugh at the whole trans thing these days. It’s very much out of fashion. And before you ask, no I don’t condone making fun of people.

This

my gen z teen daughter and most of her friends think non binary is just attention seeking, and they don’t want to have to share their toilets and changing rooms with boys at school, or compete against them in sports. Why should they?!

spannasaurus · 16/04/2025 21:49

Springee · 16/04/2025 21:47

So if teen laugh we should be educating them. Plus they are not stupid and their world/generation has far more trans people than in any previous generation so they need to accept

Have you considered that your pupils may be too scared to state their real views for fear of being labelled transphobic

Igneococcus · 16/04/2025 21:49

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 16/04/2025 21:47

I doubt they are a teacher

Hopefully not.

AshesofTime · 16/04/2025 21:49

VeraWangTea · 16/04/2025 21:48

Not read the whole thread….but I am genuinely interested in the equivalent TRA world are they discussing how to be more sympathetic towards women?

I really hope they are but I worry they are not.

I suspect that it is ‘MN’ ie women’s job to make it all nice.

Absolutely not! A quick glance at transgenderUK on Reddit would be very enlightening.

Historyofwolves · 16/04/2025 21:49

Springee · 16/04/2025 21:47

So if teen laugh we should be educating them. Plus they are not stupid and their world/generation has far more trans people than in any previous generation so they need to accept

No, they need to look at the pervasive impact of social media and how social contagion means they are effectively coerced into supporting delusional beliefs.

PriOn1 · 16/04/2025 21:49

HoundOfTheBasketballs · 16/04/2025 21:16

Yes. It would. This is the sort of thing I mean. And I totally get that a lot of the people who are loudly and vocally against this are trans rights activists. I’m absolutely not for a minute suggesting that it is just feminists who aren’t seeking a middle ground here.

The problem is that there isn’t really a middle ground left.

We were in that middle ground, such as it was, a few years back. It was accepted that “transwomen are women” was a polite fiction, if it was said at all.

Transwomen were understood to be men with a medical condition, who needed to take on a more woman-like appearance to alleviate a mental health problem and it was understood it was helpful if they could discretely use women’s spaces. They were broadly tolerated, even if that meant a few women could no longer use those spaces and had to exclude themselves. It was held that the benefits for those few men outweighed the discomfort some women experienced.

That was a middle ground. We have moved a long way away from it and I don’t think we can go back now.

Then back in 2015, Stonewall announced they were moving over to fighting for trans rights and stated that one of their aims was the removal of the single sex exemptions from the Equality Act. At this point, it should have been obvious to all that there was a clash of rights, but that was denied and no debate was employed as a tactic, with women who pointed it out being threatened and harassed and worse.

Stonewall stopped admitting that was their aim and instead, started on a massive project to undermine the single sex exemptions by implying that the terms women and sex in the EA did not refer to women and sex, but to “the group of people who identified as women” and “gender identity”.

Stonewall had a lot of power and provided so-called diversity and equality advice that suggested companies, police forces, the civil service and many other bodies should “get ahead of the law” and treat the EA as if those terms sex and women referred to “self-identified sex/women”, rather than actual sex/women.

This was so broadly adopted and the EA was so undermined, that women that were realising their rights were being removed started pushing back.

We gained ground because it was true that our rights were being undermined. And now the Supreme Court has confirmed the version of the EA Stonewall we’re pushing was not the law and those companies using it are, in fact, not acting within the law.

So what you are seeing is not a removal of trans rights. It’s the readjustment from a deliberately misleading campaign process, carried out in the name of trans rights.

What you see here on this board are thousands of women, many of whom were polite, but were abused nonetheless, who are now are hugely relieved as they can see their rights were being eroded and felt powerless, but have finally received justice.

So unless your transwomen friends wanted women’s rights and access to women’s spaces, they have lost nothing at all.

And if they did want women’s rights, because they don’t really see women as being important enough to have their own rights, then they are going to have to adjust that opinion, then reassess and start again to carve out their own spaces in society in a way that doesn’t undermine women’s rights.

JLou08 · 16/04/2025 21:49

I'm a feminist and support trans people. People who allege someone can't be both are just trying to get people to agree with their views against trans people.

GeorgianaM · 16/04/2025 21:49

I'm not a feminist and I have no empathy for transgender people outside the privacy of their own home.

BIWI · 16/04/2025 21:50

Springee · 16/04/2025 21:37

Excluding trans women/excluding trans men - both wrong

Excluding them from what, though?

Some months ago, another MNetter posted a link to the Boots website page about menopausal issues and products. The whole page had been written very carefully to exclude the words ‘woman’ or ‘women'. It was all about ‘people’ who were going through the menopause.

Which is totally ludicrous, given that the menopause is a biological lifestage that only adult females will experience.

Why should that advice/those pages have been written such that they could include transwomen, who will never go through the menopause?

And yet, it was clearly done because someone in Boots was fearful of excluding transwomen.

Witchlite · 16/04/2025 21:50

HoundOfTheBasketballs · 16/04/2025 21:23

Yes. I totally agree. Women should be safe to get changed and work out without being in fear of men invading their space. And transgender rights shouldn’t exist at the expense of women’s safety. But why can’t women support transwomen at the same time? Why can’t I say, “I want to be safe, but I want you to be happy and safe too. How can we work towards that together?”

The rights transwomen want are often at the expense of women. They want to use women’s toilets, changing rooms, prisons…
they want to compete in women’s sports, take jobs and awards set aside for women.

A large number of transwomen feel happier and safer in the above spaces. Women do not feel happier with them there!

The problem is that there will always be men (transwomen) who feel their happiness and safety trump women’s. They have been encouraged in this belief all their lives. First as male privilege, then as the most persecuted of delicate flowers. Stonewall were key in driving this message.

years ago, I felt as you do. However, it is not something that can be allowed. As soon as an inch is given, the more intransigent of transwomen muscle in. It is impossible to police.

let’s just keep single sex spaces separate and teach people who feel a bit different, that it is ok to be different and respect depends of behaviour and actions, not on your gender.

TomatoSandwiches · 16/04/2025 21:50

" Man bashing never solved anything "

Men bashing other men, women and children is an age old problem.
Women tried to solve part of this, they fought for certain protections and single sex spaces for themselves, they set up rape crisis centres, refugees. Then men decided to change tactics and erase these spaces to gain access to women and children, some committed crimes against women and then gained access to imprisoned vulnerable women and abused them as well.

Men are a problem, including the subset of transwoMEN.

Mumteedum · 16/04/2025 21:50

LobeliaBaggins · 16/04/2025 21:31

Ally is now a meaningless word. What does trans ally mean exactly?

I dislike the whole notion of allyship. It's that "if you're not for us you're against us " mentality. The human condition is more nuanced than this.

The law isn't about being kind. It's about clarity and fairness.

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