Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

Excluding trans women/excluding trans men - both wrong

Oh for goodness sake. You are still a woman so can empathise with anyone who identifies as one or do the opposite

No sympathy from me, they're deranged if they think they can be anything other than what they're born as. I'm glad common sense has finally prevailed

It's not contentious.

Can we please stop this shit now.

Women deserve and in law have, the right to privacy and dignity (just as transwomen do).

This means it's not contentious whether transwomen have access. Transwomen having access is an affront to women's privacy and dignity. Any male, however lovely they may otherwise be or seem, is thoroughly disrespecting women's rights if they walk into a women's single sex space. They don't respect women - they want to use them and have superiority over them. They want women to validate and support their fantasy.

'Contentious' suggests women's privacy and dignity is optional or open to debate. It's is not.

What prejudice are talking about? Being a woman is not the same as being a trans identified person. The experiences and challenges both classes face are different. That is why there a different protected characteristics to recognise the unique issues faced by each protected group.

"Women who fought for the vote and equal pay didn't fight for a world where prejudice against fellow men and women defined us."

How would you know?

They fought for their rights as biological women - many were accused of being unwomanly, bad women, unfit mothers etc.

They fought against men that hated that they even asked for rights, that often hated them as women.

I'm pretty sure some of them were not that fond of men, possibly quite prejudiced against those that had imprisoned and hurt them.

Don't presume to speak for them.

They’re only being excluded from single-sex spaces that don’t align with their biological sex. It’s not like they’re being turfed out of society completely. They’re perfectly fine to be included with their sex. What’s the problem with that?

Hardly, I'm in the room with them

Transwomen and transmen are not 'excluded'.

They are perfectly within their rights to use facilities in line with their biological sex.

Although my OP today was obviously made in light of today’s judgement, I wasn’t suggesting that the judgement was saying that. I was speaking in more general terms.

Nope! I don't identify as a woman. I am one. Men who claim to 'be' woman are either delusional or lying.

I don’t see anyone denying their existence. I’m not about to be rude and can co - exist peacefully with pretty much anyone. I do expect my single sex rights to be respected though. That is what had been reaffirmed today that I can go into a ladies changing room and not expect to find a naked penis. Or if I wanted same sex care that would apply to the biological sex of the care giver.

In all honesty I don’t think it’ll effect an awful lot of trans people. It’s the fetishists who get off on being seen partially clothed by women. They want validation, they enjoy pushing their way into women’s spaces and groups. They are very noisy on the internet and shouty in real life so it seems like there’s lots but I reckon it’s actually a really small number.

You are not in the room with the entirety of gen z

you may well be in a room with cringing children but my children aren’t cringing and neither are the poster upthreads children

It's the 21st century, not the 20th. We can be less enlightened we ought to be more.

It is meaningless though. Everyone is “non-binary”, none of us conform totally to the stereotypes accorded to our sex. Non binary says there is a binary and thus reinforces the sex stereotypes that women have been fighting against for over a century. It’s a basic misunderstanding of how other humans feel. Nobody goes around feeling like a woman, or a man, they just feel like themselves. The rest is all taste, or personality . The only binary is sex. “Non binary “ people are one sex or the other, not some hybrid sex. In terms of sex they are very much binary !

All of them?

Excluding transwomen (i.e., men) from women's spaces, groups, etc is correct. Excluding transmen (i.e., women) from women's spaces, groups etc would be wrong.

How is it more enlightened to take away women’s rights and protections and hand them off to men?

Thats going backwards.

Okay, I do appreciate where you’re coming from here. Similarly, I don’t believe in religions, so I do appreciate the comparison. Maybe you were just being more blunt than callous.

This, I would say the teens I know.. ages 13-19 mix male and female, don't laugh at them, they more feel they are 'cringe' and attention seeking.

Of course it is.

There's a difference between meeting any and every person as an individual, and treating them with the respect due to a fellow human (eg. sympathy for a trans-identified person regarding the practical difficulties of their life & their mental ill-health) and developing an analysis of the structural inequalities and oppressions that 50% of the population are subjected to.

That is, a feminist can make an analysis of society according to the sexed class of people - as a class - and also know & live in harmony with individuals.

I think I do (although others probably disagree!). My general ethos is that for most aspects of life your biological sex doesn't matter; the name you call yourself, the job you do, the clothes you wear, your hobbies. However some aspects of life - medical care, intimate care, sexual relationships, sporting events - a person’s biology obviously has an impact and it’s ridiculous to pretend it doesn’t. I truly don’t understand how it’s been turned into something more complicated than that.

I also get infuriated when it is absolutely accepted that trans men wouldn’t go into male saunas etc and it’s absolutely fine for gay men to uphold that boundary but yet nobody can make the mental leap from that to any of the boundaries women wouldn’t like to uphold!

So if the trans people you know aren't interested in entering the opposite sex spaces or sports then I'm not sure what it is that's happened today that they are upset about?

No rights have been taken away from trans people today. The law has just been clarified.

And of course them wouldn’t admit this in front of teachers because they know how that would go!

Fair enough, but I know where most teens are at and it's not in the past