Message for all parents of kids in Scouts! (Ireland)

[Chariothorses]

This post is to bring all mums' attention to the decision by Scouts to let male leaders supervise girls undressing, in bed etc if the men say they are women.

“The head of safeguarding, Steven Maclean, confirmed explicitly that Scouters would be counted as their chosen gender and that a transwoman would count as a female leader.”https://gript.ie/jmg-scouting-ireland-transgender/

No child who has experienced CSA, including by men who say they are trans, would ever feel safe in Scouts under this policy. On twitter the children of transitioners group have raised safeguarding concerns and recommended parents 'read CoTs' submission to the UK government 'self ID' consultation -esp. points 4 & 8'. link here:
https://childrenoftransitioners.org/2021/02/27/gra-inquiry-submission/

You can also find further relevant info here
https://childrenoftransitioners.org/2021/09/25/not-shutting-up/
and here
transcrimeuk.com/

It tells you a lot about the Scouts policy of continually ignoring safeguarding despite their appalling history of abuse of children by adults.
The idea that men like Maclean are so determined to breach the boundary that ensures girls are not forced to undress, shower and sleep alongside random men speaks volumes. Voyeurism is a criminal offence. As is indecent exposure. Yet the Scouts are openly decriminalising these crimes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-68278383

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/12378248/scouts-porn-gabby-smith-melrose-suspended/

Edited to thanks COTs for drawing attention to this.

Just to point out that Scouting Ireland and Scouts UK are different organisations.

In fact that article is completely irrelevant to UK Scouting which doesn't distinguish between male and female leaders.

The UK Scouts policy of allowing children to chose facilities "that they feel comfortable with" isn't perfect however.

What does that mean Ticking - "UK Scouting doesn't distinguish between male & female leaders?" They can't tell the difference between men and women?

It means we do exactly the same job. There is no requirement for there to be male and female leaders present like it appears to be in Ireland.

Thanks - I understand the same job issue. But does that mean there's no requirement to have a woman present if they're taking girls away on a residential (as is standard in schools with children)

In the UK there is no requirement for leaders of both sexes although it is preferable. No adult of either sex should be present while children are washing or dressing or toileting unless it is necessary and a pre agreed care plan is in place. Should an emergency require a child to be partially dressed for first aid or similar there would be two leaders and a peer of the childs choice present.

I don't understand why parents will pay for this, there are so many activities children can do these days (all of which cost money) unless they're being deceived. There is no way I'd pay for scouts or guides on the basis of lack of safeguarding, my money will go elsewhere.

I know men (good men obvs) who do a lot of volunteering and they would absolutely not agree to be the only adult overnight on residential in a girls dorm. They would self exclude (good men stay out so the bad men stand out etc).

It's just asking for a scandal really. Why are these organisations so crap at safeguarding?

Yep, all the leaders at my DS’s troop were women. What were they supposed to do - never run a camp? Only allow girls to go on camp?

‘Yep, all the leaders at my DS’s troop were women. What were they supposed to do - never run a camp? Only allow girls to go on camp?‘

I presume you mean the old fashioned sort of women ? Not the ‘first day of girl hood’ sort?

In which case, I don’t think there would be much of a problem as :

1. they were not sexually confused
2. sexual abuse by women ( the old sort) is vanishingly rare.

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen so what should a troop with no female leaders do? Never go on camp? Say girls can’t go on camp?

The other problem with this sort of ideologically based policy is that it gives all the homophobic & transphobic bigots the excuse to say that all homosexual men are fundamentally a danger to all children. Back to the good old "all gay men are paedophiles" garbage and bigotry.

And they think they're being "progressive," when actually, such policies hurt the very people they're trying to protect.

Mielikki Why don't you offer your suggestion for that situation instead of being confrontational to Allthegood names?
What would you do?

Well since there's a minimum number of two adults present, plus a certain ratio to be met he should never be the only adult. Male or female.

Scouting ratios are a lot more regulated than a lot of other activities. Take music lessons... just dropping your child off at an adults home, with no one else present.

@thenoisiesttermagant No man would be in a girls dorm.

At one time (it may have changed recently) the % of abuse cases happening in private tutoring sessions was horrendous.
As we know, predators make a beeline for children's activities where they find any opportunity to abuse. The Scouts had a truly appalling record of abuse cases and maybe 20 / 30 years ago made strenuous attempts to rectify the situation with in depth safeguarding policies and training. Recent court cases show that predators still manage to infiltrate the Scouts and abuse children - but to be fair that's the same in all places where children gather.

Which is why it's infuriating to see Ireland's scouts trying to openly decriminalise voyeurism in this way. And speaks to a grim quality of leadership that enables it.

That's awful. I don't really see why any adult 'needs' to supervise children who are school age undressing? Unless obviously you're their family member and parent. Even then there's no 'need' after a certain age. Unless the child is disabled?

Why do they ever need to get naked in scouts?

They don't. The OP is sensationalism.

Children on camp would not ordinarily need any support changing or showering.

If a child has additional needs, a care plan would be agreed for camp.

Thank you. It did sound odd. Why the need for them to be nude in front of anyone?

Thank you for being a voice of reason. My children are both involved in scouts. DS and DD. The leaders make it very clear at sleepovers / camps etc that they are not sleeping in the same room / tent as the children and do not supervise them in the bathrooms.

The reality is, at camp, most kids return in the clothes they left home in, having spent the entire weekend in the same outfit, including sleeping in it. And they have an amazing time.

Maybe concerned posters should try and find out how these things ACTUALLY work instead of spreading misinformation.

A link to the Scouts (UK) safeguarding code.

https://www.scouts.org.uk/volunteers/staying-safe-and-safeguarding/safe-scouting-cards/safeguarding-code-of-conduct-for-adults-yellow-card/

Of course that's the reality - as it is for most child activities with adults frankly ignoring much of the political ideology.

BUT insisting that men who claim to be women must be seen as women by children is doing 2 things.

1. Gaslighting children that sex change is possible and making it impossible for a child to express any concerns (sacred caste who can't be challenged or you'll be called a bigot)
2. Getting a child centred organisation involved in age inappropriate queer theory political activism

There's a reason transactivists are so keen on ensuring that children sign up to transactivist ideology while they're still children.

This is in fact unlike Guiding where girls and leaders CAN and do share sleeping and washing spaces. Last time I took Rainbows away we were in a glamping site and we had a Brownies tent, a leaders tent, and a tent with 4 Rainbows and two leaders.
My son (4 at the time) was in my tent and had to use the gents loo on his own but a man could come along and say he's a woman and use the female toilets.
I am not aware that this has changed since I was expelled as my daughter has chosen to remain in Scouting. Her troop has only male leaders but they are old fashioned enough to understand when I say she must be in single SEX tents and dorms.

100% this.

But that's not what OP told everyone.