Division of State and Church in respect to gender

[ThisPinkWyvern]

Galatians 3:28

28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Read full chapter is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gospel of Thomas, Saying 22

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom."
They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?"
Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

I am not interested in your answer to the question of whether you believe the above two passages support or do not support being non-binary or transgender. People will always disagree over how to interpret religious texts.

Many non-binary and transgender individuals do however consider how they identify their gender , to be an expression of their religious/ spiritual beliefs.The above two passages are just two examples from Christian religious texts that can be interpreted as non-binary and transgender identities being expressions of religious/ spiritual teachings.

My question therefore is:

Does defining gender as having to be either male or female under law therefore violate the separation of church and state?

Are you actually going to engage if people respond your post? You haven't bothered previously.

It all smacks of gathering material for your own purposes.

Oh and by the way, you don't get to specify what type of answers you want. It's a public forum.

As far as I am aware neither the OT or NT talk about gender. So your question is nonsensical. The New Testament also talks about neither Jew nor Gentile, but clearly there are still.

You may also not be aware that the CofE is only the established church in England.

Agree best to not engage with this one who seems on a mission* to garner screenshots.

*did you see what I did there?

Does defining gender as having to be either male or female under law therefore violate the separation of church and state?

Sounds of a barrel being scraped😂

No, because the state defines SEX not gender.
As far as gender is concerned, you do you, no worries.

You seem confused on multiple levels. This is mumsnet, not momsnet.

1). In the UK our head of state is the head of the established church.

2). See comment from @Meceme

Can we report this post for being vexatious?

Or gobbledygook.

Paul is talking about the unity between Christians overcoming divisions. In another letter he directs a runaway Christian slave to return to his Christian master knowing that he (the runaway) will be treated as a brother in Christ.

As always with Paul's letters, I wish I could read the letter he was replying to, and the one he got back in return to his.

What the 'Gospel of Thomas' means, and when it dates from, has been a matter of speculation since it was discovered 80 years ago.

The Bible (obviously) never mentions gender, and reflects the real world, where there are two sexes, but I suspect that the grammatically gendered personification of Wisdom as female was a reason the late medieval protestants ejected the Book of Wisdom from their scriptural canon (their loss).

Oh yay... another drop and run thread by Pink. 🤐

Good luck with the screenshots Pink.🍀

No, but you can report it if you think it's for research.

Re-iterating that 'the Gospel of Thomas' was written in the early centuries AD by someone interested in Jesus, but was never part of the Christian scriptural canon for any church, and was unknown until a few ancient scraps were discovered in 1945.

I wouldn't like @ThisPinkWyvern to confuse anyone by making misleading statements.

😂

Repent, motherfucker!

I'm not interested in what the 'Gospel of Thomas' has to say, as no denomination considers it a source for Christian doctrine as far as I am aware.

It is sex, not gender, that should be defined in law. Gender, unless being used as a polite synonym for sex, is too slippery a concept to be useful in law.

Let’s build a big boat for the animals and believers and watch all the non believers drown around us. 😀Then we’ll repopulate the world with incest/ an extremely small gene pool.

Also Eve. Right at the beginning. Women have been baduns from the start. Poor Adam.

Biology has never been religion’s strong point and religion shouldn’t be part of the state.

Every headline about the CoE recently has been about a Bishop sexually assaulting someone or another Bishop dismissing the victim and supporting the Sexual Abusers. It’s getting farcical choosing the new Archbishop.

I have wondered at times if the strange gender theorising in continental philosophy doesn't owe something to the discussions between Aramaic speaking and Greek speaking theologians in the early centuries of Christianity. Aramaic Christians used she / her pronouns for the Holy Ghost for several hundred years. Record of controversy exists with some Greek speaking theologian whose name I can't recall stating it makes no sense to refer to an impregnating force with feminine pronouns. The Syriacs held out for a few centuries.
Sex but not materiality.

There is no separation between Church and State in the UK, are you American perchance? The Head of State in the UK (King Charles) is also the Head of the Church of England, which is the established church.

which is the established church.

Of England, but not Scotland, Wales or N Ireland.
The Presbyterian Church is established in Scotland. Wales and NI don't have an established Church.

This is the way the thread ends,
Not with a bang but a whimper.

Jesus called the Christ is not talking about gender, he is saying that in the presence of God and the apprehension of God souls have no sex. Bodies have sex, however, and Genesis 1 points this out: male and female made He (i.e. God). All living things are posited as having a binary sex.
The lack of sex in the presence of God is not non-binary. You must also read in the context of the time the text was written when women had few rights and were the property of their fathers or husbands. In which case Jesus called the Christ is saying that women are treated as equal to men in the kingdom of God, sex does not matter to God and he does not discriminate against women or for men.
This is different from ideas of gendered souls, I'm afraid and not a support of non-binary (whatever that is - afaik everyone is non-binary in the sense of not having a gender ID, but a sex) or trans ideology.
And the Gospel of Thomas is not canonical btw, being a gnostic gospel (as is the gospel of John, it and Revelations being the only gnostic texts agreed as being canonical) so what is says has no relevance to the US division of church and state and no relevance at all in the UK, where church and state are not separate, (the Head of State also being Supreme Governor of the state church),

*My question therefore is:

Does defining gender as having to be either male or female under law therefore violate the separation of church and state?*

Church and State are not separate in the UK.

Despite this unison, belief is not mandated by the State.

Whatever Jesus may or may not have said about anything, it is up to the individual whether or not to believe it. It is up to the individual whether or not to live according to Scripture - any scripture. Bible, Das Kapital, Judith Butler, Transgenderist ideology - in this case they are all one and the same: statements of belief.

We've seen the consequences of imposing beliefs upon people.

No, thanks.

I think you'll find the king has a boss for whom he deputises i.e. God. This subtlety might be lost on a USian, though.😀

Interestingly, the Catholics never have rejected the book of Wisdom - and there area various mentions of Wisdom being a woman throughout the OT. Also the personification of God as a woman by Jesus called the Christ, in the parable of the lost coin.

I mean, I don't understand your question, but you've fundamentally misunderstood everything in the passage you quote.
The Bible doesn't have much to say on gender (as opposed to sex). As far as I know, the only genuinely relevant passage is Deuteronomy 22:5 -

"A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this."

But I really can't see how that's relevant to the way we organise our multi-faith society at a legal level.