Lesbian mistaken for trans woman in woman's bathroom in Arizona

[Christinapple]

https://www.advocate.com/news/lesbian-mistaken-transgender-arizona-walmart

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/masculine-looking-cis-woman-confronted-by-cops-in-walmart-restroom-kalaya-morton-demands-justice-video/ar-AA1AdWpn

But I thought people "can always tell"?

It also led to the irony the only males in the bathroom were two male police officers who were notified by a store employee who mistakenly thought a male had entered the woman's toilets.

"In an alarming incident at a Tucson, Arizona Walmart, 19-year-old Kalaya Morton*, a Black cisgender lesbian, was confronted by two male sheriff’s deputies while using the women’s restroom, sparking outrage and a demand for accountability.
Morton, who identifies as masculine-presenting or a “stud,” recounted the humiliating encounter that occurred when a store employee erroneously assumed she was a transgender woman. The saga began innocuously enough: Morton had entered the restroom with her ex-girlfriend, who was kindly handing her a tampon— an act of friendship that, unfortunately, soon spiraled into something far more troubling. In an exclusive interview with The Advocate, Morton detailed her shock when the two deputies barged in, shining flashlights into the restroom stall.

“You have to get out of here. You have to come out. We need to talk to you.” Imagine trying to pee in peace, only to have the police storm in like it’s an episode of Cops: Restroom Edition.
“I’m still using the restroom. I’m sitting down, I’m peeing. What is the issue?,” Morton incredulously told the deputies as she sat there.
Now, while most people hope for a streamlined bathroom experience, Morton was treated more like a suspect than a bathroom user. The deputies apparently needed to crack the case of “Who Looks Like a Man in the Ladies’ Room,” a particularly absurd mystery, if you ask us."

"as someone with a baby, the only neutral public loos near me are disabled and baby change - personally wouldn't want people who didn't have to to be using that one"

Well, as long as YOU aren't inconvenienced. 🙄

There are thousands and thousands of posts on this very site from women who are married to, or divorced from, transwomen.

Women at the coal face who have spent years of their lives and those of their children, dealing with these issues. And are now posting on this thread.

So , no, you're not 'more likely to encounter a trans person in the average person here'. Quite the opposite.

I didn't say disabled, I said gender neutral. And if there aren't any, and they don't want to use their own sex toilets then tough I guess
They'll just have to hold it in, just like the many women who can no longer use toilets or changing rooms because men are using them, have to
As for transmen, well people may freak out at first but as soon as the transman speaks it will be clear they are female.
There isn't a solution for everything but I'm not prepared to accept men who identify as women into women's spaces just because it's more comfortable for them. If you are fine with that, good for you. But you can't consent for other woman.

Again, the majority of trans identified males don't have any surgery. Nor are they required to 'look like women'. It also doesn't matter whether they have had surgery or not. There's no way to tell who has and who hasn't. And above all they are still men, no matter how they identify or what feelings they have in their heads.
Also 'gruelling surgery' does not a vagina make. Do you know how neo vaginas are made and what is used to create them?
"The whole point is that they identify as the opposite sex, not that they are using it as a covert way to creep on women' - how do you know?
There's a whole porn category of creeps 'dressed as women' identifying as the opposite sex and filming themselves masturbating in women's toilets, often with other women present. Just NO!
They belong in a third space or the mens.

“Because, trans women are an at-risk minority and they need to use one toilet or another. If they look like a trans woman they may be at risk of being beaten up in the gents toilets by all the violent men that are out there.”

There are many other at-risk minority male people who still have to use the male toilets and do use the male toilets. Why does this group get the special privilege of using female single sex spaces when no other at-risk minority male people do?

In saying that, where are the many reports of male people with trans gender identities being attacked in the male single sex toilets? If it was such a risk, we know there are male people with transgender identities who use the male toilets, why then are they not being attacked?

And if at-risk minority male groups are being attacked in the male toilets, where are the campaigns to make male toilets safer for all male people to use? Because if any male person is so at risk, they must need society’s support to make all male single sex spaces safer.

Just like no male person should expect privacy from other male people outside the cubicle when using these spaces, just as female people expect no privacy outside the cubicle, from other female people.

It was never appropriate to allow any group of male people to use single sex spaces for set aside for female people. Not for a safety aspect that seems to have little evidence in the UK. Nor for the philosophical belief aspect. Just because they believe they are female doesn’t make them so.

”If you don’t see any difference at all between a trans woman and a man then there’s not really any point in arguing though.”

You are the one here who seems to think there is an evidenced difference. So, maybe you can answer this question that no one over multiple threads has answered. And if you have answered on this thread, please can you point out where so I can read it.

What is the difference between a male person who has lost their penis and testicles due to disease or injury and a male person who elects to have these healthy body parts removed based on their identity?

And for identity, this includes eunuch identity?

But then you're agreeing that women who identify as men belong in the women's?

Why would you base your judgement of trans women on what happens in porn?

That's like saying you've watched straight women in porn and that means we all like gang bangs and incest and we're all terribly peverted.

Surely all you're seeing in porn is the peversion of the eye of the beholder not the woman or trans woman, and many straight men have sexual fantasies about trans women. That doesn't make all trans woman peverted just as women in porn are not a representation of us.

IDK you just come off as bigoted if I'm honest. Maybe you should dig down as to what you're really feeling.

You do seem confused.

Female people with transgender identities have a phallus that is attached to their groin that is unlikely to be able to be used to attack female people. They have to be manually inflated to start with. They are also not likely to withstand being used violently. Female people can certainly attack other female people, there are no reports at all of female people violently raping with their attached phallus.

There are male people with artificial cavities in their groin already using male toilets without incident though. Posters tell us often that their male friends with transgender identities still use the male single sex toilets. Plus there are male detransitioners with these surgeries using the male toilets as well. And the male people with transgender identities who have opted for the surgically created cavity while also keeping their penis and testicles.

There really have not been publicised attacks of those male people, despite it being constantly stated that these attacks are a risk and are happening. If they are happening and such a risk, there needs to be an immediate highly publicised ‘you can pee beside me’ campaign with not just awareness lifting goals but also some significant other initiatives included that make male toilets safer for all male people.

Of course though, female single sex spaces are also needed for privacy and dignity not just safety. And that privacy and dignity mean excluding all males, not just those who would attack us. And, no person has the right to expect privacy from people of the same sex outside a cubicle. And that is the same sex specifically, and does not refer to ‘a person who believes they belong in that single sex provision but is the opposite sex’.

How could you possibly know? What because they're divorced from one trans woman they now know all of them? If they're an ex it's likely to have been a bad experience right so surely their views are particularly jaded.

What I meant is I use public loos where you actually see trans women in them, which is the specific subject discussed here. I doubt that happens everywhere frequently. As I mentioned I have friends of friends who are trans. My hairdresser is a trans woman etc.

Seems like the anti trans brigade on here are just determined to claim they know everything about all trans people and their 'peverted intentions' without probably knowing any personally.

The point being made is that there is now a risk of their being a male person in a female single sex space using that space and the unconsenting presence of the female people using the space, for their porn fantasies. Those male people live streaming or recording their masturbation for that porn category are actively involving any female person entering that block of toilets without consent.

Hence the poster said : ”There's a whole porn category of creeps 'dressed as women' identifying as the opposite sex and filming themselves masturbating in women's toilets, often with other women present.”

Your point, “That's like saying you've watched straight women in porn and that means we all like gang bangs and incest and we're all terribly peverted”, is entirely irrelevant to the point made by the poster you just accused of bigotry.

What are the actual statistics around trans women raping women?

Because that claim is thrown about widely on here but without any actual numbers? Would really love to know if this is a genuine problem I should be concerned about.

You seem to be the person dismissing the experiences of others to claim that the people you know with transgender identities are no risk at all, despite there being no evidence that any male person with a transgender identity in the UK being less of a risk for safeguarding purposes than any other male person in the UK.

Safeguarding decisions are not made based on a person on the internet’s friends. Those decisions are made using statistical analysis of patterns of crime.

How do we even know it's a real toilet and not a set?

Just seems odd to ban something just because a minority of peverts have a fantasy about it. We don't ban couples from taking taxis for instance in case it puts female taxi drivers in danger?

I posted the statistics for male people with transgender identities up thread. There was a break down of rape statistics there.

Ok so what are those statistics then?

Yes I agree if there is a statistical pattern of abuse in this category then safeguarding should be implemented. But nobody has come up with those actual numbers yet on this report? Are there any police reports on this as an issue?

Sorry if I missed that. Did it include links to legitimate sources?

We are not saying that, you are, which is factually incorrect, the huge majority of trans identified men are completely intact males and have no intention of having surgery. They are men, they look like men and they behave like men, and they need to stay out of women’s spaces.

A taxi driver is not analogous with a female using a female toilet beside a male person masturbating on a live stream video using the presence of that female person for their masturbatory fantasy.

Now you are dismissing the porn acts in toilets as being fake. Just like you dismissed the stated experience of the thousands of transwidows because they didn’t fit your experience.

When you look at a surgical procedure to create a pseudo vagina, you will realise what has actually been created. At best it’s an opening into the body cavity which is lined with penile tissue or bowel tissue. It doesn’t go anywhere, it has no function, it is devoid of sensation and lubrication and the man has to use a dilator daily to prevent it closing up (a bit like having to wear earrings to prevent piercings from closing up).
An actual vagina, however, is a passage between the vulva and uterus where a baby can travel through to be delivered, where sperm can be inserted into the uterus via the cervix and where the contents of the uterus can be expelled monthly. It is stretchy, flexible and self lubricating. The two are not in any way alike.

Do you lock your doors at night? Is everyone a burglar? Surely it’s an over reaction to keep our doors locked because not everyone’s a burglar. I have never been burgled so why would I lock my doors?

‘We don't ban couples from taking taxis for instance in case it puts female taxi drivers in danger?’ I can only hope you understand what point you’re trying to make because it escapes me.

Why would you base your judgement of trans women on what happens in porn?That's like saying you've watched straight women in porn and that means we all like gang bangs and incest and we're all terribly peverted.Pretending that porn doesn't have an influence on male behaviour is either hopelessly naive or deliberately sticking your head in the sand. Men jerking off in women's bathrooms or taking pictures of their cocks in there is a whole category in itself, and yes, that includes trans women.Men getting sexual thrills from cross dressing, identifying as women or entering women's spaces is not rare. The fact is that your supposedly petite vulnerable passing trans women are a rarity.And every single trans woman out there knows there is controversy over toilets and knows that it is likely he will make women nervous or uncomfortable if he's in there. Any male person going into a female only space is deliberately and knowingly crossing women's boundaries.Women's spaces are for women to get changed in privacy or go the toilet in privacy away from male people. There isn't an exception for males who don't respect women's privacy. On the contrary, they're exactly the reason we need sex-segregated spaces.

‘Unkind’ perish the thought that women should be unkind to men, what with them being so fragile and all. Ffs 🤦‍♀️

It is up to women to solve the problem of the transmen in the female toilets.
And up to men to solve the problem of the transwomen in male toilets.

I suspect most transmen self exclude from male toilets anyway. For the same reasons women don't want men in female spaces.

Transmen are not s wedge to allow men into female sex based spaces.

You have this back to the front.

Safeguarding decisions around female single sex toilet usage should never have been made into policy without evidence that a group of male people have the same or less risk of committing a sex offence than a female person. There is no evidence at all that this sub group of male people commit sex crimes at a rate equal to or leas than female people.

The evidence is showing that this sub group of male people have the same risk still as all male people. Therefore they should be treated for safeguarding purposes as if they are male people. That means they should be excluded from female single sex spaces. That should have always been the correct approach to toilet access.

Oh it's because there's realistic 'taxi porn' where straight or gay couples have sex in the back of a taxi which it's driving, apparently unbeknown to the driver. What I'm saying is that a lot of the porn films are made to look 'fly on the wall' or real as part of the fantasy. I very much doubt these are real taxis!! So why would we assume they're really in a woman's toilet?

I'm not being dismissive, I'm just asking questions. Think that's allowed?