Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

People with a cervix

342 replies

Globules · 28/02/2025 18:20

This has really annoyed me.

Official documentation from the NHS, aka the national medical professionals, should know that it's ONLY women who have a cervix.

What is this non sentence of all women and people with a cervix?

People with a cervix
OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 01/03/2025 10:38

Namechangeforobviousreasons100 · 01/03/2025 10:37

But it is referring to women as women. It is referring to other people, eg trans men, who have a cervix, differently.

That should have been a response to the person complaining about women not being given a say about how they are referred to

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 01/03/2025 11:02

All of these arguments are tired- most of which also sound like they were made up by the Daily Mail. I think I have made my point so won’t waste more time arguing but I would suggest getting out there and speaking to a transgender individual and actually listening to what they have to say. It might be enlightening to discover that they’re just normal people.

If all else fails just trot out the tired old daily mail/right wing trope. 🙄

I DID speak to trans people. A close friend transitioning opened up my eyes to the misogyny and toxicity of the movement.

A third of my son's friendship group identity as trans. That opened my eyes up to the social contagion aspect among teenagers.

Firstofall · 01/03/2025 11:04

Anyone want to suggest what wording the Irish health service should have used to replace the word woman [my bolding] in the evidence given about the cancer screening failure?

@AnSolas
Apologies, as this is off the point I know, but cervical cancer screening in itself didn’t fail any more in Ireland than it did anywhere else in the world. By which I mean Ireland was performing to international standards in terms of screening, but screening wasn’t, and isn’t, a system that will pick up all cases unfortunately.
That’s the same everywhere.

The actual problem in Ireland was that the limitations of the program weren’t communicated properly to women in advance and communication to women was extremely poor post audit. This led to huge misunderstandings regarding the aim and ability of the screening service and the press had a field day. The role of the press and the way some journalists misrepresented the situation was reprehensible in fact, and caused much confusion. The government weren’t much better.

This comes up from time to time on MN so just wanted to clarify that because I think some still misunderstand what actually happened. Off the point I know, sorry.

viques · 01/03/2025 11:06

Happyher · 28/02/2025 19:02

Just say women and trans men. Everyone who’s targetted will then understand when I see ‘people with a cervix’ I always wonder how many men start to wonder if they have a cervix!?

Well India W for one.

ERthree · 01/03/2025 11:22

Catza · 28/02/2025 19:53

How do you know? Do you even know how these guidances, advertisement and polices are written? First, there is statistical data which, I presume, shows that people are routinely missing screening appointments for a variety of reasons. Then, there is a patient panel who has input on how the screening campaign is worded. With any luck, this panel includes a representative sample. There was more than likely an LGBTQ+ person/people in the room making these decisions about what terms would make this information more accessible, inclusive and improve access to screening programme. Enter you with no lived experience and no statistical data claiming that "they know" or rather you know better what "these people with a mental illness" know and need. Don't you think this is a little...hmm..dehumanising?

See, this is the crux of the matter, common sense is not engaged. Why the bloody hell do we need a panel of people to make decisions on the wording of a letter, it really is simple :- "Women's cervical screening programme" Easy, done, simples. No need for anything else. No need to pay a fortune.

XXylophonic · 01/03/2025 14:15

SlipDigby · 28/02/2025 19:41

By that reckoning, you are erasing transwomen who don't have cervixes.

Erasing transwomen who don't have cervixes how? Excluding them from cervical cancer screenings? Or were you refering to something else?

Grammarnut · 01/03/2025 14:44

MiddleAgedDread · 28/02/2025 18:38

It’s horrible and I’ve yet to see anything referred to as “people with a penis” (although I’m sure MN will prove me wrong!)

Edited

I think we should start referering to men, and transwomen, as people with a penis.

Merrymouse · 01/03/2025 15:39

Elmo2025 · 01/03/2025 07:40

Chill out. I didn’t bloody label them 😆 I’m just saying how they identify themselves. Good luck telling someone who is non binary that they’re actually a she/her/woman/female. 🤪

Because they are incredibly sexist and can't think of 'woman' as anything but a set of stereotypes, and can't recognised that this is screening for a sex specific cancer, and so refers to sex and not personality?

Merrymouse · 01/03/2025 15:46

AubernFable · 28/02/2025 21:32

I am a feminist, a pretty loud one at that, and I strongly disagree that trans people, especially trans women, are a threat to feminism. The trans women I know are feminists and care about women’s rights, are active in the LGBT community and above all just regular people with jobs and families. You seem so far removed from reality talking about a war.

Honest question, do you know many trans people or is this all based on what you read online?

If you can't understand why the concept of having to classify your personality according to sexist tropes isn't sexist, you really, really aren't a feminist.

WillIEverBeOk · 01/03/2025 15:49

Elmo2025 · 01/03/2025 07:39

Chill out. I didn’t bloody label them 😆 I’m just saying how they identify themselves. Good luck telling someone who is non binary that they’re actually a she/her/woman/female. 🤪

High School Reaction GIF by Film Society of Lincoln Center

'non binary'

EnchantedForestNearTheRiver · 01/03/2025 15:57

Screening for women is sufficient.

If women who identify as men think they’ve actually changed sex there’s bigger problems than words on an invite. Several posters have mentioned exclusion and access to healthcare.

If someone not using made up words makes people feel excluded tough shit.

Myalternate · 01/03/2025 16:05

🤔 I wonder how many men that believe they’ve (miraculously) changed sex, will be making appointments for cervical screening. 😂

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 01/03/2025 16:11

SlipDigby · 28/02/2025 19:00

I just had a look. It says "women and people with a cervix" which is arguably even more weird, confusing and inaccurate.

NICE’s guidelines on menopause refer to people rather than women (except for legacy links to pages with ‘women’ in the title but I don’t doubt they are scheduled for demolition).

www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng23

CaptainFuture · 01/03/2025 16:11

Myalternate · 01/03/2025 16:05

🤔 I wonder how many men that believe they’ve (miraculously) changed sex, will be making appointments for cervical screening. 😂

Oh there will be quite a few....
•The very mentally unwell
• The AGP doing it for sexual gratification
•The querelous who just want to be able to complain and punish.

Merrymouse · 01/03/2025 16:16

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 01/03/2025 16:11

NICE’s guidelines on menopause refer to people rather than women (except for legacy links to pages with ‘women’ in the title but I don’t doubt they are scheduled for demolition).

www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng23

"Who is it for?

  • Healthcare professionals who care for women, trans men and non-binary people registered female at birth with menopause-associated symptoms
  • Women, trans men, and non-binary people registered female at birth with menopause-associated symptoms, their families or carers, and the public."

If they want to be specific, why on earth not simply write 'people registered female at birth'? Why the additional reference to gender?

MarieDeGournay · 01/03/2025 16:50

Firstofall · 01/03/2025 11:04

Anyone want to suggest what wording the Irish health service should have used to replace the word woman [my bolding] in the evidence given about the cancer screening failure?

@AnSolas
Apologies, as this is off the point I know, but cervical cancer screening in itself didn’t fail any more in Ireland than it did anywhere else in the world. By which I mean Ireland was performing to international standards in terms of screening, but screening wasn’t, and isn’t, a system that will pick up all cases unfortunately.
That’s the same everywhere.

The actual problem in Ireland was that the limitations of the program weren’t communicated properly to women in advance and communication to women was extremely poor post audit. This led to huge misunderstandings regarding the aim and ability of the screening service and the press had a field day. The role of the press and the way some journalists misrepresented the situation was reprehensible in fact, and caused much confusion. The government weren’t much better.

This comes up from time to time on MN so just wanted to clarify that because I think some still misunderstand what actually happened. Off the point I know, sorry.

Thank you for this Firstofall. As you say, all screening programmes inevitably miss a percentage of early cancers, and tragically some of those cases result in death. That's not a failure, it's certainly not a scandal, but facts don't make such dramatic headlines.

I thought at the time that it was shameful the way the press etc set up a narrative about a 'CervicalCheck scandal'. It didn't do the women involved any favours, because it promoted misunderstanding of the nature of screening, it wrongly suggested that there was a legal case for malpractice, and it demonised medical professionals who hadn't done anything wrong.

It's one of those versions of history that make better headlines than the facts, like the '800 babies dumped in a septic tank' narrative. Once the sensationalist half- or quarter-truths are established as fact, it's very difficult to challenge them.

AnSolas · 01/03/2025 17:21

Firstofall · 01/03/2025 11:04

Anyone want to suggest what wording the Irish health service should have used to replace the word woman [my bolding] in the evidence given about the cancer screening failure?

@AnSolas
Apologies, as this is off the point I know, but cervical cancer screening in itself didn’t fail any more in Ireland than it did anywhere else in the world. By which I mean Ireland was performing to international standards in terms of screening, but screening wasn’t, and isn’t, a system that will pick up all cases unfortunately.
That’s the same everywhere.

The actual problem in Ireland was that the limitations of the program weren’t communicated properly to women in advance and communication to women was extremely poor post audit. This led to huge misunderstandings regarding the aim and ability of the screening service and the press had a field day. The role of the press and the way some journalists misrepresented the situation was reprehensible in fact, and caused much confusion. The government weren’t much better.

This comes up from time to time on MN so just wanted to clarify that because I think some still misunderstand what actually happened. Off the point I know, sorry.

You are, I believe mistaken.
IMO the problem was not disclosing known information to the women involved.

At the development stage the option was to build local inhouse screening provision or contract out. They ( "CervicalCheck" ) opted for contracts and selected some US labs, irish lab and UK(?) lab.

If an international standard had been applied the lab contracts would have had standardised protocol, process, procedures and control systems across all the lab providers.

Thats different from the international expected outcome ie. expected fail rate on correctly risk assessing marginally not-normal but not-cancer cells in standardised testing.

At least one US lab applied US standards to the Irish slides and did not flag/ refer samples which showed not-normal but not cancer cells to additional secondary screening. In the US this would not have been a such a problem as screening was around a 2 year cycle.
However in Ireland it was on a 5 year cycle.

For the women involved human error and poor controls led to test failure. The controls were the responsibility of CervicalCheck. The controls should be implemented to aim to eliminate or at least reduce human error. The early checks missed the start of the cancer and women were not called back for a retest or put on a more frequent testing pathway.

CervicalCheck was the centralised data processor for hospital data their remit includes looking at the outliers. Women tested clear and then having turned up in the cervical cancer treatment pathways.

Upon investigation CervicalCheck audit teams discovered problems with their suppliers.

A look back provided a list of women who were screened and mistested and developed cancer.
Post audit CervicalCheck opted not to inform the women directly but pushed that out to their GPs. GPs had no obligation to disclose the notification to the women (or if dead their family)

When sued CervicalCheck took the "standard" legal position that CervicalCheck would not accept liability or admit errors.

https://www.thejournal.ie/what-is-the-cervicalcheck-controversy-5358081-Feb2021/

The scandal was not that the system did not have a 100% detection rate. If that had been substantive issue in the individual cases, the general public/ women would have been concerned; accepting it as a terrible personal tragedy as mistakes happen; but on a personal level their risk of medical error was low.

The scandal was that CervicalCheck had decided not to inform the women involved of their findings of fact. And that there was a letter on a womans medical file which she may or may not have been informed of. And the non-disclosure clause in the out of court settlement was designed to protect the "Institution". The Abortion debate (since the 8th) was in full swing again so thats a womens righ to be informed and choose medical pathways.

Overall the scandal was ignoring the women at the center of the cervical screening which undermined other womens trust in the service.

And while all this was going on CervicalCheck was busy writing policy to provide for men with a cervix who had no legal right to have their cervix screened by the Irish Public Health system.

And it reflects an underlying anti-woman bias to pretend that a womens bodies are just like mens as man is the standard benchmark is a single sex female only medical field.

Hairyesterdaygonetoday · 01/03/2025 18:09

The trans women I know are feminists and care about women’s rights

The right to single-sex toilets, changing rooms, sports, hospital wards? The right to receive intimate care from a female health worker?

Firstofall · 01/03/2025 18:31

@AnSolas The labs were found to be fine and performing to international standards by external review. Maybe it would have been a better decision not to outsource, and certainly the optics were such during the media frenzy, but ultimately an independent review found no issues with the labs.

Governance and communication were the issues, no disputing that, but my point was the science/medical aspect was not at fault.

Ireland was in fact testing younger women at 3 year intervals as that was best practice. Not sure which controls you mean specifically. The audits themselves were a safety mechanism. Of course they got suspended, which was the last thing that should have happened, but couldn’t afford the insurance I guess?

The scandal was that CervicalCheck had decided not to inform the women involved of their findings of fact
A huge issue was that when all this broke the general public thought that not disclosing the results meant people weren’t being treated for cancer on purpose. Some still believe that, that women died due to the withholding of information. That wasn’t true of course but the fundamental misunderstanding fuelled by negligent, frenzied reporting naturally sparked outrage.

I don’t agree Cervical Check has an anti-woman bias, though it’s true their literature tried taking out the word woman for a while too. We used to call it ‘political correctness gone mad’ in the old days. Anyway, they were told, and they put woman back in. I’d be more concerned that they now communicate that screening helps but is not infallible.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 01/03/2025 18:39

Myalternate · 01/03/2025 16:05

🤔 I wonder how many men that believe they’ve (miraculously) changed sex, will be making appointments for cervical screening. 😂

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5264272-french-gynaecologist-suspended-for-refusing-to-treat-a-tw

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 01/03/2025 19:07

Merrymouse · 01/03/2025 16:16

"Who is it for?

  • Healthcare professionals who care for women, trans men and non-binary people registered female at birth with menopause-associated symptoms
  • Women, trans men, and non-binary people registered female at birth with menopause-associated symptoms, their families or carers, and the public."

If they want to be specific, why on earth not simply write 'people registered female at birth'? Why the additional reference to gender?

Call me old fashioned but how about ‘women’?

WillIEverBeOk · 01/03/2025 20:17

I do not believe that male truly thought he acquired a cervix, I think he did it as a sexual fetish and was upset he wasn't accommodated.

northwestgirl · 01/03/2025 21:07

Everyone knows that only women have a cervix,
actually this isn't true
plenty of men and some women would struggle to explain what a cervix is
people with ESOL, people with learning difficulties, people with poor education may not know what a cervix is or that only women have one

this wording is fine
women- 'ah, yes, that means me, I'm a woman so I should pay attention to this, or get someone to read it to me...'
'and people with a cervix'- oh, yes, that's me I suppose, even if I'd rather not have a cervix I guess I'd better get checked out'

Most of us TERFs include transmen in our feminism. I don't want any women dying of cervical cancer, even if they 'identify as a man'

AnSolas · 01/03/2025 22:40

@Firstofall there were issues with the labs.
Slides which showed abnormalities were given the all clear

When VP [REDACTED] was diagnosed with cervical cancer in 2014, an audit was carried out by CervicalCheck of her smears, as is the protocol when a woman who has previously had a smear test receives a cervical cancer diagnosis, in an attempt to improve the system.
Despite this, and against best practice, VP was not told of the audit or the result of it until 2017 – a year after her doctor was first informed about it. The audit found that the result was a ‘false negative’ – which meant that abnormalities were present in her earlier smear, despite it being reported to her as negative.
‘False negatives’ fall into two categories:
• cervical cell abnormalities that most screeners would not have detected, and
• ones that most screeners would have detected.
Which category a false negative result would fall into depends on each individual smear.

PC [REDACTED], a 51-year-old mother of four, received an out-of-court settlement of €2.75 million and an apology in October 2020. Two months later, she had died. Three of her smear tests – in 2014, 2016 and 2019 – were reported as having no abnormalities. Five months after the 2019 result, she was diagnosed with cervical cancer which had spread to her lymph nodes.

For example, Ireland’s CervicalCheck leaflets said that cervical smear screenings “are not 100% accurate”, where as information in Northern Ireland and Wales gave more detailed information of accuracy (“prevents 7 out of 10 cervical cancers”, “75% accurate”).

Most is the human error part of the screening as its a subjective process.
Per the UK It has a 30%/ 25% failure rate
So if your slide is examined you had a 25%ish chance that your pre-cancer cells were not detected.
Some of that will be down to the training given or how experience the individual is detecting abnormalities as its not a Y/N process.
If my memory is correct one lab had 1 person looking at the slide and made a solo decision a different lab had 2 independent people look at the same slide. The 2nd person is a control as (hopefully ) one is fail, one is pass so the slide gets an additional test process.
If you have 3 tests over a short period of time you would be very unlucky to get 3 clear tests and be found to have progressed to secondary cancer 5 months after the last.

Not sure which controls you mean specifically. The audits themselves were a safety mechanism.

Audits are not a safety mechanism

Remember Anglo and the Directors Loans?
The accounts passed the audit by getting the loans moved for a single day while routing the transaction outside the scope of the employees who were responsible for loans and bypassing control functions by having 2 process. Directors ticked the box no loans on 31/12/YY and audit of system proved no loans on the books that day.

Audits examine how robust the process is and how closely employees follow the process method.

The investigation, dubbed ‘The RCog Review’, found that the screening service is “in line with internationally respectable programmes”.

Out of a total of 1,038 women or their families who agreed to take part, the review disagreed with the CervicalCheck diagnoses in 308 cases (30%). In 159 of these cases (15%), the RCog Expert Panel “considered that the CervicalCheck result had an adverse affect on the woman’s outcome”.

So the safety is the process used to minimise human error.
The audit finds all the "uncrossed T's and undotted I's" with in a test sample
But if staff are looking at 100% of the slides and as expect every 4th slide result is wrong and on average that happens with the sample the system works with in the agreed failure rate.

CC needed a manual that duplicated the expected workflow from when the slide arrived to when the lab sent the result back to CC.
And samples of what was a "clean" to a "questionable" to a "problem" slide. The expectation would be that a good number would not be text book clean or problem.
The important ones being the questionable and how each should be managed.

So a "training manual for dummys" with
if slide
• looks like X go to page 3 go down the list and if too many boxes are ticked do Z
• looks like Y go to page 5 go down the list and if too many boxes are ticked do Z
is documented

That is what a trained experienced person is doing as they look but it having an agreeded method which documents that on paper.

In relation to the procurement process for hiring laboratories, the Scoping Inquiry said that the State didn’t place enough emphasis on quality assurances: the report said of a 2008 tender that it “underspecifies detail in respect of expected service and quality levels and quality”; in a 2010 request for proposals, the report said “service and quality remain underspecified”.

Its not possible for CC to audit what has not been agreed or what is not documented.

meant people women weren’t being treated for cancer on purpose.

Thats poor listening on behalf of the individual as VP's case and the whole thing had multiple investigative programs run around that time.

I don’t agree Cervical Check has an anti-woman bias, though it’s true their literature tried taking out the word woman for a while too. We used to call it ‘political correctness gone mad’ in the old days. Anyway, they were told, and they put woman back in. I’d be more concerned that they now communicate that screening helps but is not infallible.

I disagree that it was just PC at the time banks were creating polish documentation to assist the Polish population access services, yet a female cancer service was choosing to move to using a body part when poor education or non english speaking as a first language creates a barrier.

The government policy was use simple direct plain english to communicate and write documentation.
The change was due to lobbying by individuals who were vocally anti-women when the CC was asked to put the word woman back. And from memory the message and women involved were not welcomed by CC staff.
Other Health staff were boasting on twitter how they too were removing the word woman. Plus the trope women are people was rolled out to justify the people with a cervix.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/03/2025 23:21

AubernFable · 28/02/2025 23:17

I consider myself an intersectional feminist, not a TERF, but very much a feminist.

It’s disrespectful to talk about people I care about in such a way regardless of your beliefs.

It's disrespectful to impose upon women (in the original sex-based meaning) a redefintion of the words we use to name ourselves in society and law. It changes us without our consent from a group of people who simply share a fact of the body to a group of people who share a similar type of mind, a mind that conforms to old fashioned ideas about how men and women think, act and feel.

The bald and simple fact is that if society accepts trans gender identities in practice, language or law as being anything more than "a person who wishes to be seen and treated as the opposite sex", if it accepts there is something actually innately different about trans people to others of their sex that justifies treating them as not of their sex, it is unavoidably imposing on to everyone else a new, unwanted identity based on sexist stereotypes.

It astounds me that genderists cannot see this. It's not about "trans people being themselves", it's that their beliefs about themselves are based on a projection of their prejudices about sex and gender onto everyone else.

"Trans woman", "trans man", "non binary" - these things only make sense if you implicity accept everyone who is not claiming to be "trans" or "non - binary" has a manly or womanly mind that aligns with their body.

That is the problem with "women and trans men" - that if a person can be female bodied but not a woman, "woman" no longer means anyone with a female body, it means "people with a womanny mind". That's what women are rejected - being labelled as something we are not, something most of us find sexist and degrading, simply because that is how trans people mistakenly see us, something they need to believe we are to support their own self image. And yet this is apparently not acceptable. Trans people must be who they say they are, and so everyone else must be who trans people say we are too.

Once you realise there are apparently countless variations of gender yet no space in the belief system for people who understand and accept the body they have is a material unalterable fact and also do not think that fact implies anything about their personality or so-called "gender identity" (whether cis or trans), no space for a woman to say "I'm just female, I don't identify as a trans man but I don't have the inner gender of a trans woman and I'd like a female-only space please that is based on the shared experience of our bodies not some sort of similarity of mind" even though it is the reaction of society to our bodies that is the source of the sexism we face, you see how controlling and sexist this self-styled "progressive" movement is.