Ireland

[SuperSleepyBaby]

Reading about the Sandi Peggy case and the various issues that have arisen in Scotland - the rape crisis centre, secret cameras in mixed sex toilets in schools, Isla Bryson, Katies Dolatowski etc - it makes me think, is there just as much issues in Ireland?

i know Barbie Kardashian, the male player on a women’s GAA team. Are there as many issues in Ireland as there is in Scotland, but not really reported on in Ireland?

So despite more liberal laws on gender in Ireland - there are less issues due to how society operates in Ireland?

That's my theory 🤷‍♀️

There are flashpoints. The prison service for example. The GAA is a surprising (and potentially more public) one).

But to take the Peggy case, the nhs is strongly captured in multiple levels, in a way that I don't see the Irish health service being.

There are activist doctors and nurses, I'm sure, but the strand of 'lived experience' hires and so on doesn't seem to be as prominent here.

I haven't said anyone is involved in 'wrongdoing'. it's just how politics works

Right, it’s all fine so, that’s what you were saying was it? Come on 😂

Anyway, we’ll have to agree to differ. Work beckons.

There is actually an ongoing thread about the Gender issues in Ireland on the Craicnet board link here

Unfortunately we have Self ID as law here so we are well and truly stuffed. We also amended our Equality Act so it's now quite different to the UK law - we removed sex as a protected characterisic and replaced it with the word gender (not gender reassignment) but there's no legal definition of gender in Irish law! It's quite messy really and it's only a matter of time before we have our own SP case, but the powers that be/civil service and media all appear to be completely captured so there's very little gender critial discussion being had publicly.

As others have said, in trying to throw off the chains and shame that we carried for so many years with regards to the church, we have swung too far in the opposite direction and now seem desperate to be seen as open and progressive without thinking of the consequences.

I said it's how politics works 🤷‍♀️

Completely stand by that. Lots happens behind closed doors. There are many benefits to keeping pharma sweet, I'm sure plenty of things have been promised along the way would be seen as suspect in some eyes, but equally not in others. Politics isn't a black and white business (and definitely not in Ireland).

I visited Dublin a couple of years ago and was struck by just how much pro-queer stuff there seemed to be everywhere: more than just the rainbow flags you get in other places. It felt like a lot of Irish people are trying extra-hard to distance themselves from the old morality of Catholicism.

(You see similar things elsewhere, e.g. I think one reason America has had so much pro-trans stuff going on is because so many people are keen to distance themselves from the Republicans; and in England I've noted some of the most fervent LGBT advocates are liberal Christian groups who are clearly very eager to demonstrate that they aren't anything like those other Christians.)

yep

ETA:

As others have said, in trying to throw off the chains and shame that we carried for so many years with regards to the church, we have swung too far in the opposite direction and now seem desperate to be seen as open and progressive without thinking of the consequences.

I haven't spent much time in Ireland and know nothing about it. But from the outside looking in, it is very much business as usual with women's wants/needs being sidelined. Is that how it feels?

It did feel like that. However, the referendum last year to remove 'woman in the home' reference was a big turning point (it absolutely does not mean that women belong in the home! but that's for a whole other discussion) and has given me hope. It's the government and NGOs pushing this. I feel the tide is turning albeit slowly. The big problem will be getting Self ID law repealed and I hope that will be the eventual outcome.

Yeah that really marked a turning point. The political / NGO / media classes have pushed all this very hard, but it's gone further than the average Irish person is comfortable with.

I think Fianna Fáil are a little bit more down to earth on all this than Fine Gael and certainly more so than the Greens/SF/Labour/Soc Dems. With the political situation as it is the in US, I expect to see a bit of a retreat now.

Dissenting voices in the media are growing also.

Repealing the law is a big deal though. I'm not sure what would have to happen to prompt that. Gerard Craughwell was making some noise about it around 6 months ago, but he seems to have been silenced now. The independent TDs are probably the ones to watch there.

Maybe we need a Sandi Peggy type case to get the implications out in the open for people. Many don't have a clue what the law allows for here.

It absolutely will require a test case. The EA is just not fit for purpose as it stands, we have no sex-based protections anymore!! I pity whoever has to take that case but when the time comes there will have been several cases in the UK and futher that we can use as reference and will have the likes of The Countess to push it. I have hope.

A ot of people in Ireland have absolutely no idea that self ID was brought in. Somewhere down the line, a case of going to crop up that will get national attention, and I think a lot of people will be angry that it was snuck in without any proper public consultation and awareness.

Outside of Dublin and other bubbles where parties like the Greens do well, I'd imagine large swathes of the population will have little time for any pronoun nonsense (that is certainly the case for my family back in Ireland). My parents were utterly perplexed at Bambie Thug, who represented Ireland in the Eurovision last year, who identified as non-binary. And I know some people who struggled to get their heads around the fact that she is 'queer' but is in a heterosexual marriage. I think she was just viewed as a massive attention seeker.

Also, a lot of my relatives in Ireland were very vocal in support of things like equal marriage and repealing the 8th amendment (to legalise abortion) but were very vocally against replacing the word mother in the Irish constitution

Yes I know lots who fall into that category. It was a mark of the political elite's disconnect from ordinary people that they were blindsided by this.

Interesting that you mention Bambi Thug, my mother (78) was exactly the same. She was a bit horrified by her to be honest - her rudeness and aggression (my mother's words). Bambi definitely wasn't winning any hearts and minds there. That's not the image of Ireland that my mother thought we should be projecting to the world at all.

How do english people 'behave' in comparison, would you say?

I also think Irish people are similar to english people and scottish people - and welsh

I agree and I would say outside of Dublin, it's v much in the minority. I'm in a school and I can imagine the comments if we were to get trans indoctrination , most people will be quite openly no-nonense about it and will see the clear issues, as well, of course, as being respectful and decent to any student it concerns. I can't ever imagine being asked for pronouns for example. Let's see.

My relations are in kerry and said there was a lot of girls in the local secondacy school identifying as trans.

Ok. I wonder what the general response to it is? I'm also in Munster and I know of someone locally, parents in the school were all sent an email to ensure children behaved accordingly re new name etc. Parents of course respected it but at same time we're v clear with what they actually believed and didn't tell their children a girl was suddenly a boy.

Sorry, I meant 'If we were to get trans training'. It will be coming as part of new RSE no doubt. I'll be interested to see the response. Many people I'll bet won't have ever given it a thought.

I think the attitude was a bit ‘roll-eyes’ and not really seeing the potential harm - like seeing it as the latest trend.

I have a child in a secondary school in Dublin and they have had BeLong To in for seminars.

Yes that's what I'd imagine as response.

Are BeLong To Stella O'Malley's programme or no?

A friend in a Cork Secondary had training years ago and said to me it's like someone being gay way back, we'll all soon think this is v important to recognise etc. But when I asked her if the trans boys in her all girls' secondary would move to the boys' school she said no but couldn't explain why..

I don't think Stella O'Malley has anything to do with BeLonGTo she's gender critial as far as I know?

Stella O'Malley GenSpec. She's GC.

BelongTo and Teni are the TRA orgs. Unfortunately they still have a lot of sway despite their manifest lack of any actual expertise.