Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

In quite the turnaround Scottish Labour say the support Sandie Peggie, and would not support the GRR bill "knowing what they know now"!

340 replies

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 18/02/2025 14:51

x.com/holyroodsources/status/1891851822278590711?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

FFS. What is different now? It's not as if they weren't told over and over again what the consequences would be. 🙄

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 18/02/2025 17:44

1). they will protect single sex spaces on the basis of biological sex
2). the equality act is very clear.
But sex in the equality act isn't clear, which is why we are awaiting judgement on the For Women Scotland case.

Sex in the EA is clear, because as written the EA says there are 2 classes of women, ie "legal women" men with a GRC and biological women who (if they are very good) are allowed Single Sex Exemptions.

The FWS case is whether the priority given to "legal" women is discriminatory to biological women who as the law is currenlty writen have fewer rights that legal women.

ArabellaScott · 18/02/2025 17:45
Deer Popcorn GIF

Waitin for Pam Duncan-Glancy to weigh in on this.

IwantToRetire · 18/02/2025 17:45

For those who cant access X and aren't in a position to listen to a video this is an article (that may or may not) cover the position now being presented.

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,we-support-sandie-peggie-and-would-vote-against-gender-reforms-scottish-labour-leaders-say

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 18/02/2025 17:49

I find their faux handwringing a bit nauseating, ‘how could we have known this would happen’ they snivel, they did bloody know, because women everywhere told them it would happen, but not only did they refuse to listen they labelled us bigots, transphobes and terfs.
I have always taken my voting rights very seriously, but how on earth women are supposed to have any faith in ANY politicians for the foreseeable future I don’t know, charlatans and liars the lot of them.

Hoardasurass · 18/02/2025 17:55

zanahoria · 18/02/2025 16:43

Have the Labour Party ever change their internal definition of what a woman is?

I cannot remember the name of the transwoman who became a woman's officer but you know the one I mean.

Could that happen now?

No they haven't changed their policy and yes a man could be the women's officer again

Igneococcus · 18/02/2025 17:58

Dr Upton has fucked up majorly.
If I wasn't so angry I'd be thanking him.

I think most people took one look at his smug face and went "most vulnerable, my arse"

Merrymouse · 18/02/2025 18:00

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0042

I'm just looking at this

"Issue

Is a person with a full gender recognition certificate (“GRC”) which recognises that their gender is female, a “woman” for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010 (“EA 2010”)? "

and this

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2024/11/19/briefing-note-for-women-scotland-vs-the-scottish-ministers-uk-supreme-court-26-27-november-2024/#:~:text=For%20Women%20Scotland%20(FWS)%20unsuccessfully,person's%20sex%20under%20the%20EqA.

But my main point is that depending on the Supreme Court's decision, if Scottish Labour mean what they say about protecting access to services on the basis of biological sex, they will need to support changes to legislation that will mandate exclusion of trans women with GRCs in some cases.

duc748 · 18/02/2025 18:03

Isn't Labour saying they wouldn't now support the Bill a bit neither here nor there? AIUI, they are talking about Sturgeon's aborted Bill which was blocked by Westminster. So that's not on the statute book now, and has no effect on the situation Sandie Peggie and others find themselves in. Does Scottish Labour now accept that it's the lack of clarity in existing legislation that is the problem?

IwantToRetire · 18/02/2025 18:08

they will need to support changes to legislation that will mandate exclusion of trans women with GRCs in some cases.

That already exists.

That is why Labour is so smug. As they feel they have adequately provided for biological women.

They are the ones who wrote the SSE and think it is acceptable to tell biological women they have to show why it is proportionate for them to have Single Sex Services.

Women as a sex are the only protected characteristic who have had their characteristic demoted in relation to someone said by a certificate to be something they physically aren't. This erosion of the concept of a protected characterisic is not and would never be accepted in relation say to race or disability.

giuspeace · 18/02/2025 18:14

Kendodd · 18/02/2025 15:44

This is good news.
Politicians make mistakes and get things wrong and the public should allow them to U-turn as more evidence comes to light or a policy isn't working. The fact the public is so unforgiving is the reason we get stuck with policy that isn't working and the reason we are stuck with shit like Brexit.
Politicians, just like everyone else, need a ladder to climb down sometimes.
I say again, this is good news.

Yes indeed, and I feel very sorry for the poor politicians who must be deafened by the sound of so many pigeons coming home to roost. 😂

IwantToRetire · 18/02/2025 18:17

Does Scottish Labour now accept that it's the lack of clarity in existing legislation that is the problem?

No - they are saying what the Labour Party is saying.

That the SSE are sufficient protection for biological women.

And is what they said in the article I posted a link to.

Although no part of Labour have said what they will do is the FWS JR in some way says the SSE are not enough and give biological women lesser right, and so women to be acknowledged as a biological reality in the EA.

ie reverse the SSE would be about the very few occassion when a man with a GRC is a "woman".

Are Judges influenced by the impact on politicians / political parties of supporting a change to the law that will undermine the rights of a strand of society they have been ingratiating themselves with for years, or is it decades. ie what would the reaction be to a court ruling that said sex in the EA means biology. What happens to all the campaigns and policy guidelines that have been spread by Stonewall that TW are the same as biological women.

Washinghanginginthesun · 18/02/2025 18:20

Hoardasurass · 18/02/2025 17:17

To little to late, and we all know that if labour gets voted in next year (scot parliament election) they'll ditch all their promises and it'll be business as usual the same aa it is in Westminster

UK Labour have messed up so badly that Scottish Labour has plummeted in the polls. The worst outcome of that would be to hand the SNP yet another term.

Merrymouse · 18/02/2025 18:33

IwantToRetire · 18/02/2025 18:08

they will need to support changes to legislation that will mandate exclusion of trans women with GRCs in some cases.

That already exists.

That is why Labour is so smug. As they feel they have adequately provided for biological women.

They are the ones who wrote the SSE and think it is acceptable to tell biological women they have to show why it is proportionate for them to have Single Sex Services.

Women as a sex are the only protected characteristic who have had their characteristic demoted in relation to someone said by a certificate to be something they physically aren't. This erosion of the concept of a protected characterisic is not and would never be accepted in relation say to race or disability.

The exceptions in the GRA allow exclusion. They don't mandate it.

The H&S regs for employers are mandatory, which is why there is no doubt that Dr Upton should be excluded from changing room if no GRC, regardless of NHS Fife internal policy.

However, with a GRC, it would be NHS Fife's responsibility to show that exclusion were a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, and there is currently no case law or legislation that demonstrates a requirement to do that.

The Murray Blackburn Mackenzie briefing notes say

"What are the risks if For Women Scotland lose their appeal?

If the UK Supreme Court upholds the judgment that acquiring a GRC changes someone’s sex under the EqA, but rejects the Scottish Court’s attempt to fudge this in an undefined way, the risks below are anticipated.

The delivery of single-sex services and spaces will be further threatened. Men who have acquired a GRC deeming them female will have a presumptive right of access to single-sex spaces and services for woman, and to apply for female-only jobs.

The EqA permits single-sex services to exclude a person with the protected characteristic of “gender reassignment”, if an additional legal test is met. In principle, this could be used to exclude men who have acquired a GRC deeming them female from women-only services, spaces, and jobs.

However, previous Commons committee inquiries and government consultations on gender recognition reform have found that providers are already worried about the risk of getting this test wrong and falling foul of the law, making them reluctant to use it, due to the risk of a legal challenge.

A failure to provide reliable single-sex services for survivors of male violence is already putting the UK at risk of breaching its obligations under the Istanbul convention."

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 18/02/2025 18:49

ErrolTheDragon · 18/02/2025 17:08

Although for some reason I keep wanting to call it a Rainbow Bridge
Why would that be I wonder?

Because one of their pet dogmas has died?

👏 👏

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 18/02/2025 18:49

The Murray Blackburn Mackenzie briefing notes say

I think that MBM should read the briefing notes from the EHRC which clearly lays out how the law works now.

It is also in Lady Haldanes ruling.

The word is "proportionate".

That is the insult. That women should have to justify that it is proportionate what has for all time been the natural way of organisting.

Lady Haldane's ruling did not change the law as it currently exists and works.

The problem isn't that women's groups dont feel able to use the SSE, the threat if there is one is that activists might want to try and make a challenge for political reasons.

I am not supporting the current law - which is a total insult to women - but as it is it allows for single sex services.

The problem is the culture we now have thanks to Stonewall and others who have created the impression the trans women should have more rights than biological women.

It is far more, as this thread's subject shows, that far too many institutions eg the NHS have been transed.

Who made these organisation thinks they should have mixed gender toilets etc.. Who made them think they couldn't implement the SSE for changing rooms. Trans activists.

Unfortunately even though we know a few brave women have used the law to challenge these organisations, the real issue is how earily these organisation where persuaded men who say they are women should be listened to and actual women shouldn't.

The effectiveness of trans activismover the past few decades is the problem.

And even if the law was changed I suspect many organisation will still offer mixed sex toilets etc., because unfortunately trans culture is built on the much older more entrenched misogyny of MRAs.

And lets face it women aren't important.

At the moment many, many women's services are facing closure because of cuts to local government. And in terms of money continuing to have a local refuge or RCC for women is not thought to be a priority.

Llamasarellovely · 18/02/2025 18:56

Gradually then all of a sudden...

NotbloodyGivingupYet · 18/02/2025 19:13

ErrolTheDragon · 18/02/2025 17:08

Although for some reason I keep wanting to call it a Rainbow Bridge
Why would that be I wonder?

Because one of their pet dogmas has died?

Mic drop 😁

Kendodd · 18/02/2025 19:19

kiterunning · 18/02/2025 17:29

Dr Upton has fucked up majorly.
If I wasn't so angry I'd be thanking him.

I've asked this before but does anyone know the answer.
If Dr Upton wins, which basically is saying he is a women, if a female patient asks for a woman doctor and Dr Upton turns up, where does she stand? The hospital would have already ruled she is a women so how can the patient then say she isn't?

PachacutisBadAuntie · 18/02/2025 19:28

I decided to sign the latest repeal the GRA petition (despite issues with it pointed out by PPs) and got inbox irony

In quite the turnaround Scottish Labour say the support Sandie Peggie, and would not support the GRR bill "knowing what they know now"!
ArabellaScott · 18/02/2025 19:31

Kendodd · 18/02/2025 19:19

I've asked this before but does anyone know the answer.
If Dr Upton wins, which basically is saying he is a women, if a female patient asks for a woman doctor and Dr Upton turns up, where does she stand? The hospital would have already ruled she is a women so how can the patient then say she isn't?

Thats not a part of the tribunal at all.

IwantToRetire · 18/02/2025 19:39

Have just seen there is a joint letter from Sex Matters, MBM, FWS and FPFW to the Scottish Government saying they are in breach of Workplace Regulations in not providing single sex facilities.
See https://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/20250218-Letter-to-Neil-Gray.pdf

And reasons for sending the letter here https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/the-scottish-government-should-take-action-to-protect-women-at-work/

334bu · 18/02/2025 19:42

To be fair my Labour MSP did acknowledge there might be problems ( his reply to me below )and assured me they would be addressed after the first stage. Needless to say they weren't and then they were all whipped to vote for the bill

Thank you for contacting me to let me know your views regarding the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill introduced by the Scottish Government.

The current process of obtaining a Gender Recognition can be a lengthy, traumatic and undignified process for trans people. Scottish Labour stood on a manifesto commitment at the last election in support of Gender Recognition Reform. I will therefore support the principle of reform today at the Stage 1 vote and allow the Scottish Government’s draft bill to proceed to the committee amendment stage.

However, I do recognise there are many genuine concerns about the potential impact of the proposed legislation and the amendment stages will therefore be important in attempting to address them.

My Labour colleagues and I want the Bill to be amended to make it clear in the legislation that the protections in the Equality Act 2010 remain in place. This includes the operation of the exemptions with regard to single sex spaces. The Scottish Government have already been made aware of this position and this will be made clear again in today’s debate.

We also recognise there are also a number of other concerns particularly about the process for gaining a Gender Recognition Certificate and the age at which this can be obtained by an individual. There also needs to be improvements to the proposed provision of support and information for applicants. We will be exploring and considering possible amendments in these areas too.

I am committed to properly scrutinising the legislation to ensure it is fit for purpose and it protects the rights of all. I appreciate that you would have preferred I voted against the legislation at Stage 1, but I hope you can understand why I believe it is essential for the Bill to continue to further parliamentary stages where it can and should be amended to address the concerns that exist in order that it has the confidence of trans people and the wider public.

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 18/02/2025 19:47

Can someone explain what Pam Duncan Glancy has done? I think she's doing an okay job as shadow scottish education secretary but I haven't noticed anything she's said or done on gender ideology?

I quite like Jackie Baillie, she's my MSP and has mostly been good and helpful with a few issues I've had. She's been good at standing up to Sturgeon too (although Ruth Davidson was best at that).

Cannot abide Anas Sarwar though and the poster who quite fancies him - I really hope you are joking. He's a weasel.

I didn't know the Scottish Labour Conference was this weekend. That will be interesting. Wonder what the mood will be there. I expect a few protesters...

Tubbytiger · 18/02/2025 19:57

Llamasarellovely · 18/02/2025 18:56

Gradually then all of a sudden...

De lurking as one who has been turbo-peaked by Sandie.
Anyone get the sense that some politicians have been waiting for an opportunity to fling themselves from this runaway bandwagon? And maybe also NHS Scotland (and other public sector orgs) hoping that this ET sounds the death knell for gender woo so they can finally face down the cry-bullies?

EvelynBeatrice · 18/02/2025 19:57

Anyone know if BBC Scotland have covered this yet? I’m getting increasingly annoyed at the omission of any coverage of this saga. I read that hundreds of thousands of people have recently cancelled their licenses. What is the point of supporting an ‘independent’ trusted public broadcaster with strict rules on impartiality if it is no longer trusted or impartial?

Swipe left for the next trending thread