Sandie Peggie's tribunal and a prediction from 2018

[RethinkingLife]

Following along with Sandie Peggie's Employment Tribunal with NHS Fife, I'm reminded of this comment from a well-respected poster in 2018.

She's offering some advice to a TW and the status of GRC. I'm not linking the thread because this stands by itself and is a useful way to look at contemporary events. (Reading through those listed, it's depressingly accurate today although it's a different defendant standing trial for child rape.)

Do posters feel the landscape is changing?

What do people make of the prediction and the offer, particularly in light of current events? (This was pre-Forstater, pre every major ET victory.)

I'm going to make a prediction, and I'm going to offer you some unsolicited advice, which I think will be in your best interests.

The landscape is changing. I can't say how long it will take, but people are starting to assert absolute boundaries and reject the legal and ethical principle that a person can change from male to female and vice versa.
This will not reverse. It will grow, and it will reach an inevitable conclusion. The UK is looking very likely to be the fulcrum of change, and then the balance will shift back everywhere.

You can't stop this. All you can do is look to the future. It would be in your best interests to view this short period of history where we as a society mistakenly allowed a lie to temporarily be forced upon others, as a short-lived and unsustainable 'faux-solution' to a problem. That faux solution will be replaced with something else based upon a real and ethical foundation, and society will no longer accept 'sex changes' in any way.

Your best bet is to align yourself with what is coming. That so called sex changes are a finite blip in history, that they obstruct a real solution to inequality, and that they should be self limiting, and should be drawn to a close.
If you support the end of this era of forced pretending, and work with those who are ushering in a new era of real women's rights, then I think it is possible that the few individuals who have already gained legal recognition as the opposite sex will continue to be honoured as their legal status. A grandfather clause is a real possibility, one that accepts those men are a product of their time, but draws a line behind them and does perpetuate the problem further.

I think this is a concession that might be negotiated from women, perhaps, if we saw that the door was finally closing on the redefinition of women and their rights.
It's just my opinion. But this is where I think we'll end up.
Whether that grandfather clause will come to pass or not I cant know. It doesn't help that yet another paedophile rapist is in the news today for being transferred to a women's prison, and this one has a GRC and is legally female, yet genitally intact. The concept that having a GRC renders a person completely harmless is dissolving daily amongst examples like these…

I know what I would do in your shoes. And it isn't doubling down on 'I'm prepared to negotiate women's own boundaries with them'. It's 'I get it. It needs to stop now. Where do I go from here'

So. To answer the question of the OP:

Do posters feel the landscape is changing?

Are you kidding?!

What do people make of the prediction and the offer, particularly in light of current events? (This was pre-Forstater, pre every major ET victory.)

Barracker was largely correct in her prediction.

It's a no to a 'grandfather clause' though.

All men out of women's and girls' spaces, forever.

Any male intending, or even asking to use women's spaces is by definition breaching women's boundaries.

I think the landscape is changing elsewhere but not here.

Unfortunately Trump's various announcements on this issue probably worsen the view over here because British generally think he's an idiot. Yet on this point he is doing what most people think. It worries me what the Labour Party may do if court cases continue to rule that sex matters rather than feelings. I am worried they will try and bring in some ridiculous legislation that will only serve to reinforce the TRA's agenda even if said legislation doesn't ever come to fruition.

It needs someone strong politically here to stand up against it but unfortunately I don't know who that would be other than a Farage.

I have had my own experience at work this week that could cost me my job so I honestly don't know WTF is going on anymore. More disillusioned than ever right now.

I think the landscape is changing elsewhere but not here.

The landscape compared to 2018 has already changed hugely.

Barracker was such a brilliant poster, as was LangCleg. They made wonderful, insightful contributions. They are very much missed. As is RowanTrees, who also posted on that thread. If they haven't returned under other names, I do hope they are still pursuing their activism elsewhere.

The landscape has massively changed, but there's a lot to do in terms of clearing up the bad law and practices.

I've long thought that repealing the GRA couldn't practically be done - none of the legacy parties in Parliament would want to go near a proposition that could be framed as taking rights away from a minority. (Women, unfortunately, not being on their radar.)

Trump's executive orders are at least proof of concept that it can be done. But in the UK context, it would probably take a Reform government to do it. Short of that, it's a matter of more case law and public opinion moving in the right direction. I don't hold out much hope of Labour becoming sensible, but they might be less inclined to do something really stupid if the polls keep showing it would make them even more unpopular.

In terms of a grandfather clause regarding GRCs - I'm instinctively opposed, but if it were a matter of practical politics to accept one, I think it might be viable if:

• No new GRCs are issued
• The law is clarified to make it crystal clear that a GRC gives you no access to opposite sex spaces or services
• Anyone holding a GRC is automatically stripped of it if convicted of a sex offence

If 'sex' is clarified as biological sex and 'gender' described accurately as a term with no meaningful definition so that a GRC has virtually no effect at all, then yes, hand them out free with breakfast cereal tokens.

I don't think we're that close although things have changed a bit

The US EO helps shift the landscape somewhat but it'll take another GE to get somewhere here

Yeah, my vision is that the GRC becomes the equivalent of giving a kid a Green Lantern ring.

If it's really important to someone's sense of identity that they belong to the Green Lantern Corps, they can knock themselves out, as long as it doesn't impose on anyone else.

I am getting quite angry at people trying to tell us that we are tailing after the Americans (after Trump, specifically) or need Reform to ride to our rescue on this. Maybe it's because I'm old enough to remember just how little the main players in Reform thought of women and their rights before they found Woke as a handy cudgel, but I don't trust them at all.

We British women have been leading the whole damned world on this. It's a grassroots woman-lead movement, just as women's rights have ALWAYS been.

I don't know if there's all that much point comparing the UK to the US.

Everything is very different. History, context, legalities.

A MNer once likened the GRCs to the Legoland driving licence they dish out 😁

We're not known as Terf Island for nothing. Even disdainful male US commentators acknowledge the power of MN.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4512657-The-answer-Is-Mumsnet-I-believe?

And British academics (hello @SarahPedersen ) write about the impact of MN.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4478528-theyve-got-an-absolute-army-behind-them-womens-cooperative-constellation-in-Scotland

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5190696-why-british-feminists-are-based?

No he absolutely has not always stood against the trans madness.

This rewriting of history needs to stop.

He wrote the guidelines which led to girls in schools beings ejected to his and boys presence in their toilets and changing rooms.

He fucking wrote them. He sacrificed every girls safety and privacy for his fetish.

He has never once pledged to get them changed back again.

Hayton quite literally wrote the book on autogynephilia.

Sorry, but I don't get what you mean?

Americans had to elect Trump to shift things on in their country fast. Hopefully we'll be able to move things forward steadily in the next few years and GC Labour voters won't have to consider voting for Reform to achieve the same results.

Let's not forget that in exchange for the support for some women's rights the US has a president who's having private chats with Putin, selling out Ukraine and proposing to export millions of Palestinians to Jordan before taking over the management of Palestine.

I think the differences between Dems and Reps on foreign policy may be (a bit) over-stated. Ukraine was set to get dumped, whoever was in the White House. The EU are no more enthusiastic, and have good reason to be scared of Putin. It's hard to see Trump's wilder schemes about Palestine coming to much. Should US voters care more about what's going on in their daughters' schools, than faraway Palestine? Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

My left wing friends in the US are talking as if they're in Nazi Germany. But they did that all the way through Trump 1.0, and I'm convinced at this point they're disappointed that he stubbornly refuses to turn into Hitler.

There's nothing we can do at this distance to influence the new administration, and there will be many things we don't like and some things we're pleasantly surprised by. I'll be happy to take the wins.

I know the left wingers here would love for the left to become sensible on sex and gender. But you can't make people sensible. They have to bump up against harsh reality.

Interesting data point: Nevada is a key swing state, it's a working class state, very multi-ethnic and its politics are populist. The key driver of the Democratic machine for decades has been the Culinary Union, which organises hotel and restaurant and casino workers in Las Vegas. During the election, Harris ads in Nevada were touting her endorsements from Dick Cheney and assorted retired generals and CIA agents and other deep state hacks. Trump's ads were promising no tax on tips. Guess who won Nevada.

If there's anyone at the top of Labour (Deborah Mattinson? Morgan McSweeney?) who can read a poll, they might like to talk to Starmer about unpopular versus popular policies. And then you're relying on his willingness to listen.

Thank you for recommending this, definitely praiseworthy and food for thought.

I did not know that. Thank you - he presents always as being against the trans madness and even spoke at WPUK (which allowed transwomen to speak - one reason I was a bit wary of them).

Hayton advocates for some extra special men to be granted access to women's spaces. Namely himself. He is also open about his motivation being sexual fetish. (See the autobiog he wrote on the subject).

None of them are 'on our side'!

Even the detransitioners have often left women and girls destroyed in their wake. They never do a 10 step 'righting actual wrongs' do they?

But Hayton being touted as 'the reasonable trans person' really fucking takes the biscuit. Especially as those wanting to platform him accused 'us' of being Ultras for not accepting him as 'the reasonable trans person'.

He is the worst of them. Posing in his fucking washing up gloves. Honestly. What a fucking insult.

I think there's a bit of misdirection starting to happen now that needs a bit of unpacking.

Debbie Hayton has had some sort of realisation that pretending to be "biologically female" a la Beth Upton is putting him on a hiding to nothing. Whether that realisation is self-serving or not is a bit beside the point. He has still been speaking publicly "as a TW" based on the reality of the situation, and he's publicly testified to the Malaga Airport situation which EVEN NOW gets zapped from MN.

That's worth having a bit of gratitude for, even if it doesn't mean it changes Hayton's original motivations for transitioning or any of the guidance he set out in wake of that. The sunlight on his part has still been helpful.

No. Again, these men are NOT on our side.

What they have done is sense the wind blowing in a different direction and want to get in at the start of whatever the next phase is, so that they can manipulate things to suit their agenda.

People really need to stop being fooled by this. We do not need to show him any gratitude in any way.