Mumsnet listed as Anti-Trans

[Hoosemover]

there a list of organisations and Mumsnet is on it. Along with the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

x.com/twisterfilm/status/1888255119449268674?s=61

You might not feel qualified to comment on this census data, but Michael Biggs is.

https://www.sociology.ox.ac.uk/article/flawed-census-question-leads-to-inaccurate-data-on-gender-identity

Maybe you should read this board more often. We have discussed this census result quite a lot here.

How many infringements of women's rights do we have to see before we are permitted to move from a default of curiosity to one of caution? How many times do we have to politely ask questions and just get abuse in response? How many masked yobs disrupting women's meetings? How many women suspended from their jobs for not wanting to get undressed in front of people with male bodies? How many healthy children rendered medical patients for life?

And still every time someone plops in to FWR with accusations they get politely asked questions and given explanations, with even the odd cake recipe thrown in. I think women here are showing an astonishing level of positivity and curiosity in the face of persistent rudeness.

And maybe this Finnish study will help put things into perspective.

https://mentalhealth.bmj.com/content/ebmental/27/1/e300940.full.pdf

And this is an article on it.

https://segm.org/Suicide-Gender-Dysphoric-Adolescent-Young-Adult-Finland-2024#:~:text=The%20study%20defined%20young%20people,per%201%2C000%20person%2Dyears).

I’m not qualified to comment on this research

And yet you did (when you thought the silly mummies on here didn't know better)

I'm still curious to know how insisting there is a "match" between body types and personality types doesn't "other" and exclude people.

It's clear they can't engage honestly on this so I'm not sure how much help they are to anyone questioning anything about gender.

I educated myself and found that I'm considered trans by many definitions because I don't have a gender matching my body type. Somehow I muddle on through.

This ONS?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3030519849o.amp

It’s the way you say it that’s wrong ladies.

Sounds like a great list.

I've given it much more consideration than equally-valid belief systems like flat-Earthism and horoscopes.

As for positivity, if you believe it you are a victim, and if you're on here encouraging others to believe it you're a monster.

It's all a bit "Give us a smile, pet", isn't it?

Relying on "vibes" to gauge someone's thoughts privileges neurotypical forms of communication over neurodivergent forms of communication and is hence ableist.

What 'vibes' do men give off when walking into female loos?
The type of vibes that make women walk out.
What 'vibes' do men give off in women's sport?
The type that combined with punches of male strength make woman cry and hold their hands up to the camera showing the X symbol
Yes, important to consider 'vibes'!

👏 👏

I find a lot of posts here lack genuine curiosity or spirit of enquiry or positivity towards transgender people

You mean we're not gullible.

So basically @Darker you just got your ass handed to you on a saucer.

Thanks ladies, nice to witness. I'm now off to sleep!

It is very hard to main curiosity and positivity in tandem when people repeatedly refuse to answer the very questions you are curious about! It is irritating and one's positivity becomes somewhat threadbare.

Over and over on these threads I have seen the same pattern:

Question: We are told that being a woman is not the kind of body you have; you can be a woman with a standard, unaltered male body.
But we're also told that being a woman is not just a matter of stereotypical presentation either; dresses, makeup and "feminine" mannerisms are optional and if you feel you are a woman, you are one.
So - what is this "woman" that you feel you are? How is she defined? What reference point(s) are you using, that tell you that what you feel and are is "woman", rather than "man" - or indeed any of the many other things in the world?

And it is at this point, over and over again, that the poster being asked the question bows out. Either simply doesn't reply, or suddenly affects to believe that the question is not being asked in good faith, and flounces. It is very frustrating.

The nearest I've personally come to a dialogue on this is with a poster called Lostcat. She was pro-gender, very much so; but like me, not trans, so we were both batting in the dark to some extent. We agreed that a feeling of disconnect from ones sexed body could be a purely internal, self-generated matter ( one would still feel it alone on a desert island) but that to identify what one did feel like, by name, would require an external reference point of some kind, and reasons for feeling that one was "like that". And there we stuck, because not being trans, we would have had to guess.

So if any one who is trans can fill in the missing piece of the jigsaw, I would be very grateful.

It is very hard to main curiosity and positivity in tandem when people repeatedly refuse to answer the very questions you are curious about! It is irritating and one's positivity becomes somewhat threadbare.

The years of ‘No debate’ definitely didn’t help. If Stonewall et al had campaigned for 3rd spaces or even for trans people to be safe & welcome in the spaces for their own sex, things would be very different. But they didn’t.

And the assumption that women did not have informed opinions. That women would choose become war allies (not just supporters) to other peoples self interest and combat against their own position

its hotten to a stage where most women will agree that who can access their bodies is not a 'No Debate' issue.
And Scottish politicians who used that method to shut down questions cant brush it off when asked about the lawful provision of public services and health care in particular

@darker This source is from 2011. That is not coincidental.
What was 'trans' then and what it is now is different. This research is very suspect.
Look at https://statsforgender.org/ recommended by @Crouton19 in the 'recommend a video' thread.

This site has stats that are more recent and rigorous. For suicide just click that tab. You can see the citations. Sources are peer reviewed and not based on biased surveys (for example). Here is what this site says about stats reported back in 2011.
You don't have to be a maths wizz to see the issues.

There is no high-quality evidence to suggest that the overall attempted suicide rate of transgender youth is 41%.
The frequently repeated claim that 41% of 6,450 transgender respondents said they had attempted suicide at some point in their lives [1] is taken from the National Transgender Discrimination Survey [2].
However, a 2021 paper [3] notes that the participants were recruited through transgender advocacy organizations and subjects were asked to “pledge” to promote the survey among friends and family. This recruiting method yielded a large but highly skewed sample. By targeting transgender advocacy groups, the survey underrepresented the experiences of transgender individuals who are not politically engaged. Also, a very high number of the survey participants (nearly 40%) had not transitioned medically or socially at the time of the survey, and a significant number reported no intention to transition in the future.
A 2016 article [4] analyzes the power of this 41% statistic, investigating how it has affected conversations about the injustices transgender people face and the importance of family and societal acceptance.
REFERENCES
[1] Turban, J. L., Beckwith, N., Reisner, S. L., & Keuroghlian, A. S. (2020). Association between recalled exposure to gender identity conversion efforts and psychological distress and suicide attempts among transgender adults. JAMA Psychiatry 77 (1): 68-76. [Link]
[2] Grant, J. M., Mottet, L. A., Tanis, J., Harrison, J., Herman, J. L., & Keisling, M. (2011). Injustice at every turn: A report of the national transgender discrimination survey. National Gay and Lesbian Task Force; National Center for Transgender Equality. [Link]_
[3] D’Angelo, R., Syrulnik, E., Ayad, S., Marchiano, L., Kenny, D.T. & Clarke, P. (2021). One Size Does Not Fit All: In Support of Psychotherapy for Gender Dysphoria. Arch Sex Behav 50: 7-16. Link]
[4] Tanis, J. (2016). The power of 41%: A glimpse into the life of a statistic. Am J Orthopsychiatry, 86 (4): 373-7. [Link]

I had another thought about this yesterday and didn’t have time to post it.

If anyone needed a demonstration as to why women fawn over particular males, it is being shown why right here. There is this expectation that unless there is a show of enthusiastic ‘curiosity’ or ‘enquire’ and ‘positiveness’, women are considered to be ‘anti trans’, ‘transphobic’ and ‘hateful’ .

This dynamic is exactly why when some women and girls are uncomfortable, and even distressed, they perform the opposite. To avoid the repercussions of some person who has judged them and considers them hateful. And those repercussions can range from social or family ostracisation, or difficulties at work, to much worse.

What other group demands this level of performance?

And what other group of person would feel comfortable with forced positive reaction even? I would hate to have people fawn over me individually or collectively over a group I am in. Of course, I know some people very much desire to know that someone is performing this way under duress.

However I wonder if people who express such complaints ever think beyond their own signalling of virtue and think about the type of people who demand this type of behaviour. Demanded with the threat of personal attack, such as being falsely categorised as anti-trans for not being positive or not performing curiosity.

And FFS, reading a group of people’s posts and declaring them not up to someone’s personal standard of ‘positive’ reaction or ‘’curiosity’ is the very fundamental premise of ‘judgement’.

And what other group of person would feel comfortable with forced positive reaction even? I would hate to have people fawn over me individually or collectively over a group I am in. Of course, I know some people very much desire to know that someone is performing this way under duress.

I’ve told the story a few times on here of the big transwoman who came up behind me on a quiet road in Brighton & wanted my opinion on his hair, makeup & clothes.

Of course I was enthusiastic & affirming. There was nobody else around & he was a foot taller than me. I was bloody scared.

If we were discussing anorexia and bulimia, mind states very similar to gender dysphoria, I suspect you'd find that I wasn't the only poster with a lack of genuine curiosity or spirit of enquiry or positivity towards .... people with eating disorders. Because after a while it becomes obvious that they are, sadly, crazy, dangerous, and manipulative.

That doesn't mean I hate people with eating disorders, though I might fear for them (and grieve the ones who didn't get away) but I do find them tremendously boring and long ago decided I had to get on with my own life rather than carrying their mental issues in my own head.

Exactly, empress. If the aim is to transgress boundaries and to enjoy the reaction, labelling ‘vibes’ as being a justification of a group being worthy of categorising with a judgemental label as transphobic anti trans or whatever, is achieving that.

Now the poster may not have understood the dynamic, but merely been repeating the interactions they have seen and felt were righteous. But the outcome is just the same, isn’t it? That being people using shame to shape society to allow some people to live as though their identity reflects material reality when it doesn’t.

I'm wondering how long we have to be curious for. LGB people fought to be seen as normal so that their sexuality was just another part of them, not something to be highlighted and remarked upon constantly. Is it anti gay to not keep reminding gay people that we know they are gay? What about if we don't ask them about their sex life as not asking shows we're not curious?

I'm disabled, should I consider people to be anti disabled people if they don't show interest in my disability but treat me like everyone else?

Yet again we are told that to not put trans people on a pedestal is being anti trans. Treating them like normal people is somehow wrong. When does it tip from curiosity into fetishisation?