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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #6

1000 replies

nauticant · 07/02/2025 12:34

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

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borntobequiet · 08/02/2025 04:38

Blimey. Just read Maya’s witness statement in full. It really blows the doors off everything, in plain sight, in a court of law.

guinnessguzzler · 08/02/2025 06:31

Thanks, as always for the commentary, wims! Took me until now to catch up (I had predicted midnight) although I did have a sleep half way through!

So if I am following correctly, it sounds like the double investigation went something like: NHS Fife started an investigation, got a letter from Sandie Peggie's solicitor that was very clear and made it obvious they were completely in the wrong, they then started a new investigation, supposedly because the first investigation was being carried out by someone who was also a witness, but that same person was then still involved in carrying out the second investigation. And they failed to disclose any of this, and the related paper / email trail in advance of the tribunal; it was instead deduced by Peggie's legal team because NHS Fife couldn't successfully hide a needle in their own haystack nevermind run a piss up in a brewery, is that about the size of it?

ruffler45 · 08/02/2025 06:47

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/02/2025 19:35

I think the big problem for DrU that arises because JR is representing both is that DrU presumably can't argue that all of his harassment occured because he was acting within the workplace policy?

One could argue that as she is representing both JR originally 100% agreed that NHS fife have done no wrong and that there is only one mutual defence. That was of course until we have discovered that NHSfife seems to have not produce all the possible evidence and leaving JR to defend the indefensible.

guinnessguzzler · 08/02/2025 06:56

Thanks for sharing that, @Igneococcus Final quote from the article:

'As an organisation, NHS Fife remains committed to upholding its duty of care to all employees.'

They've got a bloody nerve; 'remains committed' implies they have consistently been so and I think this tribunal will make clear that is not the case.

I too wonder about the consultant who shared the wide email about the 'hate incident'. It is surely obvious to even the most committed TRA that this was going to be controversial so why would you not first seek advise? I presume the general culture meant she either felt she didn't need to or couldn't. I check everything potentially controversial with our employment law company, even quite small things that I'm confident about, because a) that's what we pay them for and b) it is much easier to get it right early than fix it once it's gone wrong. Mind you, that involves a preventative approach which I don't think the NHS more generally is very good at🙄

TimeForATerf · 08/02/2025 07:09

Caught up here and in Tribunal Tweets, moved over to X now.

Just seen a tweet from Mr Menno (for those that don’t know, he’s a Dutch, gay supporter of women and gay rights and one of the good guys).

apparently at least one “man” has been witnessed using the female toilets at the tribunal. Description, friend of Dr U, six foot tall, dress, long hair.

Couldn’t make this shit up, you really could not.

TimeForATerf · 08/02/2025 07:19

Dr U’s father is apparently employed by the University of Edinburgh. What a surprise. LinkedIn picture matches man supporting Dr U to court.

RethinkingLife · 08/02/2025 07:27

ruffler45 · 08/02/2025 06:47

One could argue that as she is representing both JR originally 100% agreed that NHS fife have done no wrong and that there is only one mutual defence. That was of course until we have discovered that NHSfife seems to have not produce all the possible evidence and leaving JR to defend the indefensible.

Is it just NHS Fife that has failed to respond to Judge Tinnion's order to disclose material emails and documents (?) or has BU done likewise (emails/documents involving NHS Fife staff and also the BMA)?

Boiledbeetle · 08/02/2025 07:36

£9000

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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #6
ruffler45 · 08/02/2025 07:36

RethinkingLife · 08/02/2025 07:27

Is it just NHS Fife that has failed to respond to Judge Tinnion's order to disclose material emails and documents (?) or has BU done likewise (emails/documents involving NHS Fife staff and also the BMA)?

..

RethinkingLife · 08/02/2025 07:50

archive version of Times piece upthread: https://archive.is/lin1a

Clear explanations with useful sequencing of events and dates:

Evidence on Friday was postponed because Peggie’s legal team requested documents relating to what they described as “career-ending allegations” made by Upton about two incidents of failings of patient care. These allegations were “unfounded”, the nurse’s team said.

She said Peggie’s legal team had been “anxious to see the covering emails for documents entitled Hate Incident and Formal Complaint”.

She said the Hate Incident document related to the changing room “dispute”, while the one titled Formal Complaint included allegations of “the resuscitation unit incident and what we’re going to call the ‘missing patient incident’, the patient who was triaged and left the hospital without being seen”, the tribunal heard.

Cunningham said: “Stakes for both claimant and second respondent [Dr Upton] are extraordinarily high. The second respondent has made potentially career-ending allegations against the claimant, of a nature which would raise, if true, clear fitness to practise questions.

“If those allegations are untrue then obviously the potential consequences for second respondent would be serious. For the sake of all parties, we would say it’s necessary for all parties that this documentation is aired.”

She added: “The respondent knew full well they had started then aborted this investigation. They did their best to conceal that investigation and certainly did not admit to it and produce the documents.”

RethinkingLife · 08/02/2025 08:03

TimeForATerf · 08/02/2025 07:09

Caught up here and in Tribunal Tweets, moved over to X now.

Just seen a tweet from Mr Menno (for those that don’t know, he’s a Dutch, gay supporter of women and gay rights and one of the good guys).

apparently at least one “man” has been witnessed using the female toilets at the tribunal. Description, friend of Dr U, six foot tall, dress, long hair.

Couldn’t make this shit up, you really could not.

Not only is Sandie Peggie having to argue that women don’t want men in their changing rooms, but at least one man has been using the ladies AT that very tribunal Can’t make it up. A small toilet shared by claimant and respondents. Sandie, her mum and daughter could easily bump into a bloke in a dress in there at the very place where they are defending women’s single-sex spaces That’s some proper meta-trans fuckery Friend of Dr Upton, 6ft+, long hair, dress, sneakers (eye witness account)

x.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1887982950953976312

Booboobagins · 08/02/2025 08:10

@DuesToTheDirt. Peggie is toxic because she has made derogatory comments (actually her and her husband) about trans people. Imo she deserved to be suspended behaving as she did. She did not take positive action but acted out obviously hurting the Dr. This plus the evidence that she holds anti trans beliefs is why I hope they find in favour of the NHS.

I don't want to share changing rooms with anyone. Give me privacy any day, but if I found a trans woman in a changing room I would be venting at them, I'd take action to remove myself even if I was there first!

ArabellaScott · 08/02/2025 08:13

What derogatory comments has SP made?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/02/2025 08:17

This plus the evidence that she holds anti trans beliefs

What "anti trans beliefs"? The same ones that the majority of the population hold, that "trans women" are not actually women?

NHS Fife isn't allowed to discriminate against on her on that basis I'm afraid and what her husband believes or says is totally irrelevant.

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 08/02/2025 08:20

Booboobagins · 08/02/2025 08:10

@DuesToTheDirt. Peggie is toxic because she has made derogatory comments (actually her and her husband) about trans people. Imo she deserved to be suspended behaving as she did. She did not take positive action but acted out obviously hurting the Dr. This plus the evidence that she holds anti trans beliefs is why I hope they find in favour of the NHS.

I don't want to share changing rooms with anyone. Give me privacy any day, but if I found a trans woman in a changing room I would be venting at them, I'd take action to remove myself even if I was there first!

"Evidence they hold anti trans beliefs"

Do you honestly think you can go through the NHS dispensing with anyone who has thoughts you don't like?

Have you considered whether there were any courses of action available to Peggie that you would permit her, except never ever saying anything about any situation that involved DU?

Or are you advocating that a woman bleeding through her clothes and asking for privacy is never allowed to do that?

You might want to order what that means for women and girls more generally.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 08/02/2025 08:20

Booboobagins · 08/02/2025 08:10

@DuesToTheDirt. Peggie is toxic because she has made derogatory comments (actually her and her husband) about trans people. Imo she deserved to be suspended behaving as she did. She did not take positive action but acted out obviously hurting the Dr. This plus the evidence that she holds anti trans beliefs is why I hope they find in favour of the NHS.

I don't want to share changing rooms with anyone. Give me privacy any day, but if I found a trans woman in a changing room I would be venting at them, I'd take action to remove myself even if I was there first!

What do you mean by “anti trans’? Meaning that men aren’t and cannot become women? This is actually allowed. IMO such people mock women and as such are liable to robust criticism. Ms Peggie found a man in her changing room. How is speaking up about that “anti trans”? And what have her husband’s views got to do with her? Where are we,1953?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/02/2025 08:21

I can fully believe that @RethinkingLife

Kucinghitam · 08/02/2025 08:21

Booboobagins · 08/02/2025 08:10

@DuesToTheDirt. Peggie is toxic because she has made derogatory comments (actually her and her husband) about trans people. Imo she deserved to be suspended behaving as she did. She did not take positive action but acted out obviously hurting the Dr. This plus the evidence that she holds anti trans beliefs is why I hope they find in favour of the NHS.

I don't want to share changing rooms with anyone. Give me privacy any day, but if I found a trans woman in a changing room I would be venting at them, I'd take action to remove myself even if I was there first!

Translation for the Non-Righteous: Malfunctioning partially-sentient support bipeds are Bad and should be Punished.

RethinkingLife · 08/02/2025 08:22

Including this from Lucy Hunter Blackburn because of the reference to the involvement of NHS Scotland.
https://x.com/LucyHunterB/status/1887919384305483871

As a lay observer with some experience of employer duties, and some as a shop steward, today's hearing in Dundee sounded a lot like a car crash for NHS Scotland (who turn out to be providing the legal advice to NHS Fife). /
The crunching sound was particularly loud at this point. When a quick search over lunch immediately found several previously missed (over how many months, and after how many requests...?) relevant emails from a main witness for the health board./ [Quote tweets Tribunal Tweets:
JR - 4 items tasked to do. 1. AW email sending formal complaint to board. Email is sent from AW to us, and all parties. 2. KS materials she has performed another search, there are 4 emails or chains. AW will put together a bundle to arrive this afternoon. 3. confirmations x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1887870320679223363 ]
It's not going to look great if the people fighting all the way to ET for the right to discipline a female nurse simply for letting on that she didn't want to a male doctor in her changing room, turn out to have failed to comply with a court disclosure order/
If so, we'll all be watching with considerable interest for what does and does not get you into serious trouble in our national health service.

x.com

https://x.com/LucyHunterB/status/1887919384305483871

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 08/02/2025 08:22

RethinkingLife · 08/02/2025 07:27

Is it just NHS Fife that has failed to respond to Judge Tinnion's order to disclose material emails and documents (?) or has BU done likewise (emails/documents involving NHS Fife staff and also the BMA)?

NC also mentioned that there were emails of DU missing, particularly covering emails related to the statements that were eventually submitted as finished pieces. She was asking for the conversation trail that went back and forth as it was drafted.

jeaux90 · 08/02/2025 08:25

Booboobagins · 08/02/2025 08:10

@DuesToTheDirt. Peggie is toxic because she has made derogatory comments (actually her and her husband) about trans people. Imo she deserved to be suspended behaving as she did. She did not take positive action but acted out obviously hurting the Dr. This plus the evidence that she holds anti trans beliefs is why I hope they find in favour of the NHS.

I don't want to share changing rooms with anyone. Give me privacy any day, but if I found a trans woman in a changing room I would be venting at them, I'd take action to remove myself even if I was there first!

Grow up. You are talking nonsense and it's this nonsense that has caused all this unnecessary lawfare.

You'd be well advised to look at the win rate in those cases, meanwhile these women like Sandie get put through avoidable stress.

Women don't need to remove themselves from their own spaces to accommodate attention seeking males.

guinnessguzzler · 08/02/2025 08:25

There aren't enough eyerolls in the world. But it is a good demonstration of why these types of cases keep coming, and losing. People are still actually allowed to hold transphobic, racist, homophobic and all kinds of other beliefs we might find unpalatable, evidence that they do (which to be clear, I don't believe is the case here) does not mean they will (or should) lose at tribunal. But if the true believers genuinely think that because someone may hold transphobic views they should lose regardless of the facts, they will keep bringing cases that are destined to fail. Especially where 'transphobic' often actually means 'doesn't wholeheartedly support the TRA agenda'.

ArabellaScott · 08/02/2025 08:27

'the evidence that she holds anti trans beliefs'

What beliefs? What evidence?

Vague insinuations are not persuasive.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 08/02/2025 08:31

Booboobagins · 08/02/2025 08:10

@DuesToTheDirt. Peggie is toxic because she has made derogatory comments (actually her and her husband) about trans people. Imo she deserved to be suspended behaving as she did. She did not take positive action but acted out obviously hurting the Dr. This plus the evidence that she holds anti trans beliefs is why I hope they find in favour of the NHS.

I don't want to share changing rooms with anyone. Give me privacy any day, but if I found a trans woman in a changing room I would be venting at them, I'd take action to remove myself even if I was there first!

Also, just because you claim you would have acted in a different way, doesn’t mean SP has to do the same as you.

in ant event, Dr U would have complained about you too. The only acceptable thing it seems to him for anyone to have done is to stay there, and shut up, because his being validated is all that matters

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