NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board - thread #2

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

First thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

It's being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr

Just read an article in The Courier (archive link), interesting point near the end about interuptions: "In one case, the tribunal was brought to a halt by what sounded like a woman’s hairdryer." (my bold) I wonder what made it a woman's?

There is another similar single sex facilities case going through lower stages of court in England’s side, which is a different ET jurisdiction to Scotland. It was issued by myself and MN discussion is available here:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5159395-employment-tribunal-case-to-protect-single-sex-facilities-at-work?page=10&reply=141915345

NC wrote a blog on this last year (not connected to this case)

It doesn’t matter if the peanut has been mashed to a paste, moulded into the shape of a walnut and scented with walnut oil, so that no-one looking at it, smelling it or eating it would dream that it might be a peanut. It doesn’t matter if it’s got a special certificate that says that for legal purposes it’s a walnut. It still needs to be left out of the peanut-free dish, or the peanut-free dish ain’t peanut-free.

💯

It is ludicrous to suggest that a dish doesn't contain peanuts because the peanuts it contains have been altered. It is entirely reasonable to debate whether the altered peanuts should be included or excluded, and whether they remain dangerous to those with peanut allergies.

TRAs like the focus to be on 'when dies a peanut stop being a peanut' because once it is agreed the peanut is a peanut and will always be such, it is very hard to argue for its inclusion in peanut free dishes.

In this tribunal, if the starting point was DU is male and this isn't in question, NC could have objected to most of the questions presented to SP

Agree @Brainworm and thanks for sharing the peanut analogy again @LondonLawyer, I’ve always liked that one and found it useful.

In this tribunal if the starting point was DU is male…

I might be being dense, or perhaps it’s because of the NHS’s policy but I’m not sure why the starting point isn’t that DU is male, as it seems to be the case no GRC is involved.

The thing is JR is ideologically pure and in the 'in crowd' so it's fine for JR to misgender. But SP is against the cutted up pear demands and therefore is a heretic and must be burned at the stake for using normal English.

It really is that stark. Somehow the trans allies throwing other women under the bus never get abused for misgendering.

I might be being dense, or perhaps it’s because of the NHS’s policy but I’m not sure why the starting point isn’t that DU is male, as it seems to be the case no GRC is involved.

I think the NHS is coming from the position that viewing DU as male is degrading and humiliating for him, therefore it constitutes harassment. I don't think they are interested in whether he really is or isn't. This is the post modernist pig swill that the NHS and other public sector organisations have been bathing in for so long that they have lost all sense of reason.

I asked that question yesterday, and imagine my shock when I heard that he was going to give evidence!?

Same. Except my children as I brought them into the world. And my mum isn’t a psychopath. 😂

But I’m never going to prioritise someone else’s feelings and comfort over my own right to speak the truth as I see it. I’m not cruel for the sake of it, but I’m also not “being kind” for the sake of it either.

Is Maya a witness and when will she be appearing?

A nephew applied for medicine last year. What struck me was how ‘political’ some interview questions are. Topics like difficulties facing the NHS. Yes they may ostensibly be about ensuring applicants know what they are letting themselves in for/have given thought to issues within the NHS, but they are also very political. Would the interviewers be unbiased if you felt the NHS would be better run by private companies or that reforms are hampered by the BMA? DEI came up more than once in interview. I doubt the question would have been as controversial as if male doctors should be allowed to change in female changing rooms, but it doesn’t need to be. They are firmly instructed not to share the questions, so I only know a couple vague topics not the questions - something that is itself questionable if you want to hide selection on ideological grounds.

This whole nonsense should never have been necessary.

Is DU legally and biologically male - yes
should be be in a woman’s changing room - no
is the issue less that he’s trans and more that he’s a man - yes
even if he had been “legally” female ie with GRC, could he have been excluded from the female CR - yes

i mean wtf the NHS should be ashamed of wasting the money on their shitshow of a defence which thus far seems to be no more than a character assassination of a woman standing up for herself. I really feel for what Sandie has gone through particularly in cross exam. As others have said, it truly is the process that is the punishment

In one interview, Helen Joyce was explaining how students are accepted into American universities.

She said that if you don't have some 'social justice' interest on your application, and in your interview, then, the administrators won't give you the time of day.

But it has to be the 'right' kind of social justice, as far as the university is concerned. It has to be race, or gender related.
She gives the example of white boys needing extra help with English, as they are frequently falling behind their peers.

They'd laugh you out the door.

So, I'm just wondering if the same sort of nonsense applies for the universities and the NHS?

I am going to complain about the way Sky news, The National newspaper in Scotland and the BBC news have twisted the exchange of the tribunal and are leading with headlines that say Sandy admitted to harassment. It's shocking they are boldly lying. Shows me what side they are on. What the best process? Anyone know? I wish I could just do an angry phone call but it will be another strongly worded letter from me I reckon...

So, I'm just wondering if the same sort of nonsense applies for the universities and the NHS?

No, categorically not.

Yes she is. Not sure when but it will be sooner rather than later.

Good morning to day 3 of Peggie V NHS Fife/Dr Upton.

Please turn off all hairdryers and refrain from eating crisps for the duration of the hearing. Thank you!

Is that women's hairdryers or all hairdryers in general?

Tea is made, breakfast eaten, cats fed and watered, snacks are... Damn snacks are still in the kitchen. I'm currently WFTCHTJ so have time to get the biscuits.

I read with some high pressure specialities like brain / heart surgery it can be a distinct advantage to be emotionally detached and completely focussed on the anatomy rather than the person. Having worked in healthcare I can see the benefits. Sometimes being an empath can work against you.

Does a hairdryer have to be pink to be classed as a woman's? Mine is black. Is it male, or does it just identify as male?

Which just goes to show how stupid this gender nonsense is.

I think this is relevant

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/nhs-nurses-meet-wes-streeting-over-single-sex-changing-rooms/

I daren't listen in. I reckon it will start late so I'm off to do a spot of hoovering.

Quite a few of DD's friends have applied to study medicine this year; they all seem well-adjusted, if a bit workaholic.

The WFTCHTJ man has a lovely rich voice.

Thanks for the commentary all. Fingers crossed no disruptions today.

I think it was mentioned that Dr Upton was signed off on the sick for two months due to the distress of being challenged for using the women's changing rooms. And nurse Peggie was presumably suspended on pay while the very very long investigation took place while the HR person was on holiday a lot or something.

So a policy of ushering male people into women's changing rooms on request lost NHS Fife a great deal even before we got to the £££ being spent on this tribunal case. A policy of allowing males into women's space is inevitably going to lead to conflict. Even if all the males simply go in and out and change, they're causing distress and embarrassment to the women by their presence, as we've heard. And it would be naive to think that every future male who takes advantage of this opportunity won't also take advantage of it in other ways. Even if they win, this is a policy that would continue to cost them dear on an ongoing basis. It's indefensible morally, and it also doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

DH and I share a hairdryer.

Do we have a non binary hairdryer?