Can we talk about bisexuality?

[Pluvia]

Just that really. I'm a lesbian, one of a number seeking to rebuild new lesbian and LGB networks after our established communities and events and hang-outs and culture have been trashed by the TQIA+ brigade.

Lesbians and gay men are feeling really beleaguered. We've seen almost every sphere of gay and lesbian life infiltrated by 'queer', trans and spicy straight people all using the events and groups we've founded for their own purposes — mainly of validation. Pride has been taken over by the T. Our cafes, pubs, bars, all gone.

I think a significant number of gay and lesbian activists are finding it increasingly difficult to work out where bisexuality fits into all this. I'm in a number of different LGB groups and this issue has started to crop up in them. People who join describing themselves as bisexual and wanting to get involved in helping rebuild their local LGB communities turn out to be in long-term, stable heterosexual relationships. Some of them for 20+ years. Some bi people in such relationships want to involve their straight partners on the basis that although the partner is straight, they are in relationship with a bi person who isn't — but who, to the outside world, looks straight.

Does it matter? Well, if you're in a heterosexual relationship you're unlikely to experience the everyday (usually minor) moments that most of us who are out still encounter. Things like the need to come out regularly to people who assume that we're in straight relationships, the slight but still palpable 'othering' that sometimes comes when people realise they're talking to someone who isn't just like them. Sometimes it's much more pointed. And if we hold, say, an LGB club night, so that LGB people can associate without the straight gaze, should we allow bisexuals to bring their straight partners? Doesn't that negate the intention of the event?

Bisexual people who are living in a heterosexual relationship have the security of being undercover. They may not see it like that, of course, but they pass as straight. I'm pretty sure that one of the bi women who's involved in one of the groups I'm in is a straight woman who bases her bisexual identity on the fact that she had a relationship with a woman while at university, many years ago.

I don't know if there's a solution to this. I think lesbians and gay men are much more cautious around the dangers of self-ID and identity politics than they ever were. How are other groups handling this?

What does assuming someone in a mixed sex relationship is straight look like?
I couldn't think of anything stranger than meeting Bob and Sue and thinking "I'll bet Sue is only attracted to men, and Bob to women." It's not something I'd give any mind to, and unless someone became a good friend I don't feel it's any of my business.
I realise other posters have made the opposite demand of bi women here, that they should be out and proud and make their sexuality other people's business even if they married their male high school sweetheart 30 years ago and the relationship is still going strong.
I do feel a bit of a similarity with someone sharing a trans identity because I don't know what I do with the information, what role do I have in validating this person's identity?

I'm pretty sure OP is talking about women who are bisexual and in a relationship with a men and who want to attend lgb events. Not women who have ex's who are men and who are now in a relationship with women.

edited for spelling!

You use minority in a way that means oppression points.

Bisexuality is a minority in that (pre 2010s) there weren't many of us.
It is entirely unrelated to the need for single sex spaces in a dating context.

Yes I didn’t say some people were not affected. I said that even within the community of people affected by discrimination because they are lesbians, there will have been degrees of discrimination and degrees to which people were able to mitigate that discrimination based on the circumstances they were born into and the choices they made. So deciding who is welcome based on who has it the hardest feels problematic to me.

For the record, I had it relatively hard for someone born in the 80’s. I imagine plenty of people born earlier had it harder and plenty born later had it easier but I’d still be happy to be at the same event as them.

I think that perhaps these grouping reflect too much of an emphasis on sexual attraction as defining one's identity.
Maybe to you but a lot of lesbians don't agree which is the reason for OPs post.
I really don't think it's OK for a bisexual woman who is married to a man to make such a statement.

No, I didn’t use it in a way that means oppression points, I stated it as a rebuttal to your saying
you are female and bisexual you have access to 53.5% of the population.

What on Earth did you mean by this if not in an age appropriate dating context?
what sort of access are you talking about if not dating? I was saying LGB groups have nothing to do looking for a new partner/dating because I cannot think of any other context for your comment about my having “access to 53.5% of the population”

I identify more with LGB that with the TQ+ but there's still nowhere I feel I fit fully, and I'd certainly not feel welcome at an event or group.

I don't feel welcome at parades etc, I don't really feel that I have anywhere I can for support as a bisexual woman. It would have been really useful if I'd had somewhere to go, particularly with my abusive ex who was constantly hassling me for threesomes and a poly relationship because apparently being bi means you're not monogamous. I could go on.

My partner isn't straight either but doesn't feel like he would be welcome within the community either. I don't want to feel like I have to hide who I am just to be accepted. Biphobia is a very real thing. I haven't stopped being bi just because I'm with a man. Being with a man doesn't mean I haven't experienced homophobia.

So yeh. It really sucks. I came out in 2004 and it was an absolutely awful experience that I had no support in managing the fallout from. Not much has changed. Honestly I'm fed up of being 'othered' for my sexuality by both sides.

Why wouldn't it be ok to share an opinion in a post that specifically asks for opinions on this very point? The reason for the OP's post is that she isn't sure how to handle bisexual people in lesbian and gay groups, and she's not entirely happy with how these groups are at the minute, hence the rebuilding. I don't think I've done something not OK by make a statement expressing my own thoughts in answer to this question.

AshCrapp I think that perhaps these grouping reflect too much of an emphasis on sexual attraction as defining one's identity, and not enough emphasis on the experience of living life in the world, given your particular relationships and the particular social climate you live in.

This is what I was getting at in a previous post - it's not just about sexual relationships, being a lesbian is also about emotional and social relationships that prioritise women. There used to be an old-fashioned term 'woman-identified woman', indicating that you are committed in your primary emotional and social commitments to women, not men.

Committing to a primary relationship with a woman rather than a man, in 'the particular social climate' we live in carries a significance which is an important aspect of being a lesbian, and it goes beyond mere sexual attraction.

Some women feel that way, others don't, and leave open the possibility of a primary relationship with a man. Either way, it's their choice to make, but it is between two significantly different emotional, social as well as sexual choices - being lesbian, or being bisexual.

with my abusive ex who was constantly hassling me for threesomes and a poly relationship because apparently being bi means you're not monogamous.

Same. There's a whole thread to be had about the "one dick rule" as well.

This makes perfect sense to me. The things that you're saying remind me of the Ti-Grace Atkinson style political lesbianism of the 70s - "Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice" - but with an added emotional and social dimension.

About 98% of groups and events are for LGBTQ or LGB or LB. I have zero idea why women are claiming they are not welcome because a tiny few groups are for lesbians only.

In bi-inclusive groups, lesbians still give us the side-eye. I'd rather that you put a sign up "no bis" than that you accept us on paper but not in practice.

Oh. You really don't get it.
Ok.
I am talking about a dating context, but I think it's applicable to non sexual / romantic/ social contexts too.

If you are female and genuinely looking for a female partner/company , you know you won't have an issue right?

Opening up lesbian spaces to people who have no interest in vaginas, (or allowing them to bring their straight male partners) , or allowing male people in based on identity, messes it up for women who are only interested in women.

This applies to mixed sex gay spaces too.

I feel like this should be obvious. Especially to a lesbian or bisexual woman.

I'm going to paraphrase my position.

It is perfectly acceptable for females who are exclusively attracted to females, to have spaces where no males are allowed.

It is perfectly acceptable for males who are exclusively attracted to males, to have spaces where no females are allowed.

It is perfectly acceptable for homosexuals who are exclusively attracted to people of the same sex , to have spaces where no people who are not exclusively attracted to the same sex are allowed.

Finish.

People who are (or claim to be) bisexual, have no right to those spaces on the basis of their bisexuality.

They are probably welcome (individually) on the basis of their same sex attraction but they have to actually like tipping the velvet/ glazing the donut

And most importantly, you absolute plonkers, they can't bring their boyfriend / husband or girlfriend /wife, which some people seem to be trying to earnestly argue they should be allowed to.

Spare me.

And more importantly, take a look at yourself, you petulant, impressionable... Neo Puritans.

Leave lesbian spaces alone!

What groups are you going to where you are given the side eye?
Do you go on about your male partner?

This. 😫

I don't have a male partner.

I'd be talking to someone in a gay bar and mention being bi and the temperature would drop ten degrees.

Same. There's a whole thread to be had about the "one dick rule" as well
As in lesbians who won't have relationships with women who have had sex with men? I've mostly heard of this from bisexuals, but in real life lesbians, in my experience, don't mind at all.

FFS this is not exclusionary. People can date whoever they want for any reason.

You'd be surprised at just how many lesbian dating profiles have it on there along with the tag line "should have realised it before you slept with a man" etc.

Online dating is a minefield. Tbf though mine had 'No trans' on, it's good to know people's boundaries before you message them.

No, I'm talking about something that bi women face from male partners who assume that we must be poly. It was an aside in response to that one poster, not actually related to the thread topic.

Nothing to do with gold stars insisting on dating other gold stars, which is something I recognise their right to do. Being accepting of me in a social space that is designated as including me is not the same as inviting me into bed.

Of course they can but equally these are our experiences and they're valid too.

It's not about dating, it's about basic politeness in a social space that I'm allowed into.

Seriously, this just shows you have no real understanding of discrimination to raise this.
Some lesbians find it hard to get anyone interested in them. That is not discrimination.
Some lesbians want to be with women who prioritise women, especially lesbians who are also feminists

You are talking about chatting to a woman in a gay bar. That sounds like a chatting up scenario.