Can we talk about bisexuality?

[Pluvia]

Just that really. I'm a lesbian, one of a number seeking to rebuild new lesbian and LGB networks after our established communities and events and hang-outs and culture have been trashed by the TQIA+ brigade.

Lesbians and gay men are feeling really beleaguered. We've seen almost every sphere of gay and lesbian life infiltrated by 'queer', trans and spicy straight people all using the events and groups we've founded for their own purposes — mainly of validation. Pride has been taken over by the T. Our cafes, pubs, bars, all gone.

I think a significant number of gay and lesbian activists are finding it increasingly difficult to work out where bisexuality fits into all this. I'm in a number of different LGB groups and this issue has started to crop up in them. People who join describing themselves as bisexual and wanting to get involved in helping rebuild their local LGB communities turn out to be in long-term, stable heterosexual relationships. Some of them for 20+ years. Some bi people in such relationships want to involve their straight partners on the basis that although the partner is straight, they are in relationship with a bi person who isn't — but who, to the outside world, looks straight.

Does it matter? Well, if you're in a heterosexual relationship you're unlikely to experience the everyday (usually minor) moments that most of us who are out still encounter. Things like the need to come out regularly to people who assume that we're in straight relationships, the slight but still palpable 'othering' that sometimes comes when people realise they're talking to someone who isn't just like them. Sometimes it's much more pointed. And if we hold, say, an LGB club night, so that LGB people can associate without the straight gaze, should we allow bisexuals to bring their straight partners? Doesn't that negate the intention of the event?

Bisexual people who are living in a heterosexual relationship have the security of being undercover. They may not see it like that, of course, but they pass as straight. I'm pretty sure that one of the bi women who's involved in one of the groups I'm in is a straight woman who bases her bisexual identity on the fact that she had a relationship with a woman while at university, many years ago.

I don't know if there's a solution to this. I think lesbians and gay men are much more cautious around the dangers of self-ID and identity politics than they ever were. How are other groups handling this?

Perhaps it's ok for different groups to have different rules?

Perhaps people should join the groups whose rules and members they prefer?

Perhaps we won't come up with one rule to suit all groups?

Perhaps that's fine. People are all different.

Yes I agree. So have Lesbian only events.
If it’s an LGB event, then you should be tolerant of the G as they are and we Bs how we are. We all make different choices. Your choices as a lesbian shouldn’t be the measuring stick for which bisexual women get to attend an LGB event.

LGB events rarely exist. They are LGBT. Or lesbian and bi, or lesbian

Same. And I served in the armed forces when it would have landed me in prison. So yeah, there were many reasons why my “observable behaviour” as a bisexual was straight as an arrow for many years.

I think that perhaps these grouping reflect too much of an emphasis on sexual attraction as defining one's identity, and not enough emphasis on the experience of living life in the world, given your particular relationships and the particular social climate you live in.

I am sexually and romantically attracted to women, but my two serious relationships have been with men. I've been with my husband since I was a teenager. If we ever broke up, I'd have both men and women in my dating pool.

I guess that technically I count as being "bisexual" but honestly I don't identify as bisexual, because my romantic and sexual attraction to women is a completely inert part of my life. I'm not dating or in a same sex relationship, so the question of who I am attracted to just doesn't impact any aspect of how I'm treated socially, or even my own inner experience of the world. I don't face discrimination or have people treat me as a novelty, I don't have to explain how my family works, I get to just fit into the expected pattern of what a relationship looks like. In my own self, I experience no conflict. I don't have any internalised self hatred or regret, I'm perfectly happy finding both men and women attractive, but also I have no fears or anxieties about being accepted or raising my children a certain way. My relationships and family aren't constantly politicised and over sexualised. I don't hide same sex attraction, but I'm don't mention it unless it comes up - and as a married woman in my 30s, it almost never comes up.

The question is, what are these groups for? If they're little identify clubs that meet to discuss how attractive this or that person is, then sure, welcome people like me. But of course, what people really need is a group to help them navigate a life lived with same sex relationships: a space free from your relationships being politicised, sexualised or othered, a place of support and activism, somewhere to meet other people who have the same experiences, somewhere to meet romantic partners. And I genuinely don't think there's much point in opening these spaces up to people who don't live life in a way that involves same sex relationships.

To put this simply: "should bisexual people be welcome?" Isn't the right question. The question is something like "should all people whose lives are impacted by their same sex attraction and same sex relationships be welcome?" And I personally would want to say yes. This phrasing excludes people like me, for whom bisexuality makes no difference, but includes bisexual women for whom their same sex attraction plays a much larger role in their life.

Ok, well any event with B in it, should welcome all Bs regardless of the sex of their current partner.

And there were lots of lesbians in the military. Some of whom got dishonourable discharges and lost their pensions.

Yes, this happened to many lesbian and bisexual women. The threat was real.

“"should all people whose lives are impacted by their same sex attraction and same sex relationships be welcome?"

My life has always been impacted by my same sex attraction even when I am in a relationship with a man.

I am going to be 100% honest. Various bisexual women have shared personal stories of him discrimination and harassment led to them choosing to be with a man. Some lesbians are slightly resentful of bisexual women who did not want to be part of the community on the past because it was hard, and now things have got easier are demanding they should be welcomed as part of the community.

Almost certainly.
They are sort of coming out the other side already, having never been actually interested in women.

Lesbians are/were (still are) oppressed.
Oppression became sexy
Oppression started winning prizes.
Suddenly everyone is 'oppressed'.

You keep going back to 'lesbian only events', but I've been talking about the wider issue of whether LG + B are a good fit when it comes to organising as a 'community'. Even the OP only mentions social events in passing, most of her comments are about community organising.

Many posters have said that as bisexual people they feel they do not belong in the 'LGB community' and have repeatedly asserted that their experience as bisexuals is distinct from L&G experience, and indeed that they experience biphobia from both gay and straight people. That backs up the idea that lesbian+gay+bisexual is not a good fit, if both L&G people and, as evidenced on this thread, bisexual people, don't feel it's working for them.

It shouldn't be problematic for people to gather together around a shared experience - threads on MN are based on that, and the world is full of like-minded people getting together. By definition, an embroidery group is going to 'exclude' people who are not embroiderers, but that doesn't mean being phobic towards them, or telling non-embroiderers to fuck off, as a PP felt we were doing to bi women.

From the comments of bi women on here who experience biphobia, it would seem like a good idea to have spaces to discuss their specific experiences, and ditto lesbians and gays.

How? (This is a genuine question asked in good faith!)

It's not quite that simple (for everyone). Circumstances play a huge part, in other words, when you meet the right person, or the person you think is right - and who reciprocates - what sex they happen to be. Bisexual women shouldn't be seen as lesbians manque.

I'm not part of this community so apologies for chipping in but I've had a few glasses of wine. Do gay men, lesbians and bisexual people have a huge amount in common? It seems like the groups are very different in their experiences and interests. So wouldn't a solely lesbian group be the best support for other lesbians? I'm not saying don't have a big get-together but also it's fine to have your support group who actually understands your experiences.

I was responding to the many bisexual women on this thread who have said they decided to choose a male partner because of discrimination and harassment.

No, I didn’t go with him.
I did go while I was with him though (with his knowledge and consent).
Everyone I met was welcoming and kind.

I’m in a same sex relationship now but if I meet people in a mixed sex relationship I don’t make the assumption they are straight. Because there a lot of them that aren’t.

The WHOLE point of someone who might be bisexual going to an LGB event is for that assumption to be swept away.

I thought I was lesbian when still at school, got discriminated against then. We are talking mid-nineties, Section 28 still on the statute books. The first lesbians I ever met were hostile towards me as soon as I said I was bi; they were happy to talk to straight-passing me before I came out to them. It was after that that I dated men for a bit, then later I dated a woman and had coke thrown at me because we thought we could hold hands in public.

My first experience of discrimination was lesbophobia from straight women and my second was of biphobia from lesbians. I was trying to be "in the community" and got rejected by lesbians before I decided "fuck it, I'm taking the easy path". So don't blame us for not wanting to be in "the community" when many of you make it crystal clear that you reject us.

Sure, that’s understandable.

But is the degree of discrimination you faced and how you were able to respond to it, a good way to decide who is welcome and who isn’t?

There will be degrees of discrimination within the lesbian community too as well right? A lesbian born in the 70’s with wealthy, accepting liberal parents, who was fairly straight looking and was able and encouraged to move in liberal artsy circles would have had a much easier time being out than someone born to poorer, more traditional or religious parents, who couldn’t help them go to uni or leave their home town and who was more butch presenting? And both of them would probably have had a much harder time than a lesbian born in 2000.

Yes, I do keep going back to the OP and the topic she started, which is which Bs should be allowed to attend LGB events (or any event with a B in it).

I agree the experiences of all three are very different- L, G, and B.
I don’t think that LG are more alike than LB.
Yes, these events are places where we can connect with other bisexuals to talk our specific experiences, but also the ones we have in common with anyone else who is not straight.

The embroidery example isn’t very good.

I'm lesbian and left the LGBTQ back in 2019 for good.
All my interest political and social is reserved exclusively for women and lesbians.
Lesbian groups are for a social life but they also provide something else extremely valuable ( or they did in the past) it was a culture devoid of male influence, their wants or desires. That's pretty powerful and why I would resent the bisexuals as they would invariably talk about men.

Lesbians did not have civil rights. It affected everyone.

I have watched this thread with great interest as it is a debate the went on in the seventies and eighties.

I think the whole Q thing has muddied the waters somewhat and lesbians have had to go back in to retreat.

And i note a lot of i identify as phrases knocking about, which in of itself, will make any lesbian nervous of who might be “playing” with them

I have had in the dim and distant past had a couple of female sexual relationships. I have been in a heterosexual relationship for thirty seven years.

And during that time have flirted with and found a number of women attractive

I have never considered myself as “bisexual”

I am heterosexual because that is the path i chose in terms of relationships.

I strongly feel that lesbian women should be able to exclude any woman who does not state that they are a lesbian.

but if I meet people in a mixed sex relationship I don’t make the assumption they are straight. OK, but should the heterosexual partner of a bisexual go to lgb events? I don't think so. Most people would think people in a mixed sex relationship are straight, it's not really making an assumption.

I don't know how this would work in practice. Should lesbians only date other lesbians? Should my step-mum, who has been happily married to my lesbian mother for a decade, and in a relationship with her for nearly two, be excluded from lesbian events because she was married to a man for twenty years first? Should she be left at home while my mum's goes to lesbian social events and then go to her own bisexual social events while my mum's stays behind? Should lesbians only date lesbians and bisexuals only date bisexuals?