"NHS Fife nurse allowed to call trans doctor a man during employment tribunal"

[AnotherAngryAcademic]

I've not read the decision yet - but this seems promising!

I actually think that the Dr Upton's request to be called "Dr Upton" if pronouns can't be agreed on is reasonable, although if the judge had simply decided that titles should be used it would have been a bit ambiguous as "Dr" is both sex and gender neutral. For example, if it had been another nurse asking to be called "Miss Upton" it would not be as straightforward - so it is useful that the claimant can say "he" if necessary.

(Use of "Dr Upton" also emphasises the hierarchal element of the relationship between the parties, which may well be relevant in the case.)

I also think it is no bad thing to specify that the tribunal will intervene if male pronouns are “used gratuitously and offensively on a repeated basis with no good reason to do so” - I can't imagine that this would be done deliberately, but it will be interesting to see what, if any, use will be considered "offensive" by the tribunal as this is something that is often discussed.

Link: https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/5169032/nurse-nhs-fife-trans-doctor-tribunal/

Just shows the GRA is a pig's ear of a law. Legal fictions are ridiculous. Especially when they're set up to discriminate against particular protected characteristics as this so clearly does.

@SerendipityJane - I don't think it's a magic spell, just that it would be the GRA, not NHS Fife who would have reclassified them as frmale

And that's why it has to go

It's a v important point - not being compelled to use transpronouns for someone without a GRC is less of a victory (but still significant) than not having to for someone without a GRC

She is SO good. Wields words like a scalpel cutting through dickheadery.

At the time of the complaint Dr Upton could not have legitimately had a GRC as he hadnt "lived as a woman" for long enough. If he didnt have one then but has acquired once since what is the court meant to do then? Perhaps they allow "he" when referred t the time of the complaint but use she for now?

Even if he has a GRC requiring me to address him as she in court is requiring me to lie in court. That is not legal in England and should not be legal in Scotland.

"At any moment, Peggie’s right to state her own reality can be withdrawn, dismissed as unimportant in a way that Dr Upton’s “truth” never will be."
This really resonated with me as an example of the bias in the court system.

And we have Forstater, which held that even if someone had a GRC, an individual is still entitled to believe they remain their birth sex. And if you have that belief, you’d want to use the birth sex pronouns. It’s not harassment. It’s a reasonable extrapolation from that belief being protected.

Good point. So the Judge's ruling seems to go against the Forstater judgement? Also, basic truth. Either Sandie Peggie is expected to tell the truth as she sees it using normal language or the court can compel her to lie. Which is it? Using correct sex third person pronouns is not hateful, it's normal English.

I've often wondered whether Russell is a secret TERF. She's done more for the cause than most.

I see the blood transfusion risk quoted on here a lot, but the largest ever study of 8700 people, published in NEJM 2023 showed no increased risk. Blood transfusions are not sex-matched.

The blood transfusion thing confused me. There are many examples where sex at birth is highly relevant - would he want potential prostate problems ignored, for example, or how he would feel if his likely infertility was investigated as a female problem - but I didnt think blood transfusion was one of them.

would he want potential prostate problems ignored,

If he insists he's a woman, shouldn't he/she just have to put up with that?

Re. the blood transfusion risk, i found this relatively recent study

https://haematologica.org/article/view/haematol.2023.283550

Which I've only skimmed. It seems the risk is small, poorly understood but real.

And this from the National Blood Transfusion service

https://www.blood.co.uk/news-and-campaigns/the-donor/call-for-more-men-to-give-blood/

As the NHS allows patients to self ID, it seems to be causing a glaring problem (one of many). Men will also be called to give blood more frequently. I'm assuming this will include all 'men'.

Anyway, back to thread. I'm glad I read the Victoria Smith article because she perfectly articulated something about the Judge's decision that had rankled me. That the truth for women (but not too much) remains in the gift of men. At the root of the entire court case.

I’m still a bit amazed at the good doctor’s statement that the fact that she was trans was not known to all staff at the hospital.

I think this person is confused about people being ‘too polite’ or ‘too feart for their job’ to say anything with ‘nobody has noticed I’m trans’.

I can't help wondering would he have tried it on when the changing room was full of women? Or if it had been occupied by a female Dr, especially one more senior to him? I also wonder if he's tried barging into the changing room when other nurses were there on their own.

Or does it mean that some people just think he's a man and have no idea about his trans identity?

The Baroness has sent a letter.

The Baroness is a legend.

Unlikely, as Dr Upton changed sex marker and name on the GMC register in April 2023.

Haha!

I googled it, and yes, not knowing your lower alimentary canal from your lateral epicondyle it's pretty much your arse from your elbow.

What a woman 😄

^Dr Upton and NHS Fife have gone to some considerable lengths to suppress his identity but if you have seen his photograph your suspicions might be aroused by
his high forehead and beard.^

Excellent!

That wouldn't necessarily mean that all the staff at the hospital would know though. 'Dr Upton' could be either male or female. Other staff would only know about his GMC entry if they looked it up. I can't imagine all the staff at the hospital bothering to do this about one random doctor. I'd think they'd only do this if they were suspicious of his identity or something else about him.

How does a patient encountering them for the first (and likely last) time know that ? Or are hospitals not run for the patients (who do admittedly mess up all the statistics) ?

Thank you Datun for your googling. That is just excellent, knowing his arse from his elbow 🤣

‘Dr Beth Upton’ is not going to look, move or speak like a female person, so with the best will in the world I think it’s unlikely that anyone who clocks the full name on the ID badge wouldn’t be aware of a trans identity.