Teen declared they were trans and now says they can't be in contact with us

[crochetedcat]

As the title says really, I'll try to keep this brief but obviously it's complicated.

DS went to university and within a few weeks of being there declared he was now trans and had a new name. We were all rather confused as this seemed out of the blue at 18. He is autistic but seemed happy and doing well, good course, plans for the future etc. I've kept using 'he' here for clarity.

We decided to jointly take the approach to be supportive and to focus on everything else, didn't question it, carried on as usual. I was very aware that challenging it would not go down well, especially when at uni with potentially lots of people saying how awful we were for asking any questions at all. So we decided to take the 'thanks for telling us dear, that's great, how's uni going' approach.

Tbh there was very little change apart from when they came home for a visit in November they were wearing a bit of make up and had made changes to voice and mannerisms. This was difficult to deal with as it felt like the concept of being female was being stereotyped but again, we didn't react and continued to support. He happily went back off to uni after a few days of seeing family etc.

Christmas was the same. He came home for a week but was fairly distant. But we continued being positive and asking about course, friends etc etc - everything you would usually do. No one questioned anything and just rolled with it. The key point here is we have all been as accepting as possible, no one has said anything even vaguely negative, lots of enthusiasm about uni and life more broadly.

Then early in the New Year, we got a message that we were all clearly embarrassed by him and there would be no more contact ever again. It felt ludicrous tbh. The day before we'd been chatting on WhatsApp about his course and something I'd been reading. I responded asking where this had come from, that we weren't embarrassed and would support him in whatever. He said ok and asked about the dog as she'd needed to go to the vet. A completely unemotional reaction really to having just declared he'd never see his family again.

However I haven't heard from him since. He ignores all messages including asking him if he's ok. This was nearly 3 weeks ago. He's not great at responding to messages but would usually do so in a day or two even if just an emoji.

I am guessing the accusations that we are unsupportive are about his anxieties. Or wanting the drama of no one supporting him. It feels very similar to 'the script' of the cheating husband where history is rewritten to fit the narrative.

I also assume the wanting to cut contact is due to him feeling uncomfortable in his 'old life' because it's confronting and now his new normal where probably everyone is effusive.

I would bet money on new friends / the internet driving this.

But it feels so unreal and I don't know what to do next. Is it serious? Is he just never going to have contact with us again? Do I just remain supportive and sending him photos of the dog and articles I see about climate science and including him on the family groups, he hasn't left those yet?

I'm of course angry that someone could just send a message like that to his mother with no feeling. And upset. And scared etc etc

And then there's the minor fact I'm financially supporting him through university. I'm paying for the phone contract for the phone he used to tell me he was never going to see me again. Is he assuming I'll carry on sending him £700 a month to cover his uni halls costs whilst he declares he's estranged?! It feels like a younger teen yelling that they hate you and then asking what's for dinner and can they have a lift to town.

At a loss really and not sure where to go from here to have the most sensible outcome.

Thank you.

I keep answering people who post to me, but that's how the thread gets derailed, so I'll stop answering in the interests of the thread getting back to the OP's issue.

@ChicLilacSeal What do you think a GRC should entitle someone to, and do you think there should be any limits?

If a 40 year old, 6 foot 4, 18 stone male had gender reassignment surgery-assignment surgery but in no way passed, do you think they should get a GRC and the same, or different rights alongside it?

Completely fallacious, the person in question was a drag queen. Never claimed to be trans.

It was very sad, but most likely linked to existing mental health issues, don't try to shoehorn someone's tragedy into your weak argument. It's abhorrent.

Let's say for argument's sake he looks so feminine that nobody would bat an eye if he used the women's toilets. Fine, if he does that, how would anyone know and be bothered? So nobody is actually harmed or made to feel afraid.

But using a changing room is quite different, as you're exposing your body.

The fact that he feels uncomfortable using the men's changing room is his issue. Nobody forced him to do all the body modifications that make him look different.

He made a choice, now he has to live with it. It's not for society to bend over backwards and be made uncomfortable just to accommodate his choices.

Quite.

For someone who says they think
'I think that GRCs should only be issued to people who have transitioned medically'

I'm intriged by their timezone (and the fact they've STILL not gone to bed). And the fact they are from Brighton.

They definitely aren't a TRA and can't be bothered to do research, then suddenly demand 'evidence'. No not that type of evidence, thats biased.

Why would someone whose timezone isn't the UK, be really that bothered about UK legislation? Why would they pick and choose which evidence is acceptable to them and be completely dismissive of the independent Cass Review?

Why would they resort to anti-science and anti-intellectual arguments instead using the propaganda techique of 'appealling to emotion'?

Coupled with a whole bunch of misognistic comments and stereotypes which reduce women to unthinking passive support humans?

And we are supposed to pretend we don't see straight through it?

The OP is trying to do the best for her child and has real concerns. Concerns this poster isn't really interested in, because they are too busy trying to virtue signal and manipulate the OP into compliance.

Sadly there are a whole bunch of reasons why affirmation isn't a magic bullet and doesn't address the nature of coercive behaviour and family alienation in a situation where the issue isn't a lack of support, its a rejection because someone has unrealistic expectations that can't be met. And theres no conversation about the communication issues that autism can present.

The hijacking occurred at a very particular point in this thread, and I have to say I find that interesting in its own right.

How on earth would that be policed, @ChicLilacSeal ? You can't lift everyone's skirts as they enter the changing rooms. Defining your gender based on appearance is discriminatory, and defining it as what's in your head gives free rein to the questionable types who do want to be changing in the ladies with their bits very much intact.

The only fair way forward here is to segregate provision by sex, and for men to work on their behaviour so that they do not predate on other male people in their space no matter how they present.

This was our son. Easy going and it felt like a relief at first when he started making some choices for himself because he'd previously never asked for anything and been a bit too go with the flow.

I can see you're thinking carefully about how to approach this. I'm wondering if you could find something to rebel on that's not connected with gender.

Our teen also started treating us horribly. We tried to side step it thinking it was just a phase and probably being autistic he didn't realise how bad his treatment was. Actually deep down he knew and I think it allowed him to hate himself and feel guilty. It was much healthier for him when we met it head on.

already told you, the Swedish study, which shows exactly that in the 1989-2003 cohort, per the author of the study.

No it does not. She is clearer in the AMA she also gave than in that interview. You don't understand what the research says, so stop misrepresenting it.

Read this thread where her deliberate misrepresentation is dissected.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3761578-Long-Term-Follow-Up-of-Transsexual-Persons-Undergoing-Sex-Reassignment-Surgery-Cohort-Study-in-Sweden-2011-clarification-by-lead-researcher-Dr-Cecilia-Dhejne-2015

From poster @FloraFox

"For combined transgender females and males and for the whole period 1973-2003 we saw an increased risk of being dead ( in suicide and cardio vascular diseases) and of being hospitalized for any psychiatric morbidity and for suicide attempts. We saw a positive time trend regarding mortality, suicide attempts and any crime and violent crime. For the last period (1989-2003) the transgender group did not have any elevated risk of being dead or being hospitalized for suicide attempts or committing any crime or violent crime. They had the same risk as the controls. However the elevated risk for being hospitalized for psychiatric morbidity still remained. The elevated risk in the transgender group could be caused of many things which we were unable to control for.

Increased trend in crime and violent crime before 1989 and afterwards the same risk as the controls. The control groups were the birth sex group."

Very convenient! We see this a lot here when the logic starts breaking down.

I haven't read your entire message, RedToothBrush, as we are never going to agree and also I'm fooking tired, but just to clear up the timezeon: I'm on the East Coast of America, but I am British. I've lived here for a long time but have spent many, many months at home during my parents' illnesses. I sometimes stay up all night surfing the web because I suffer from depression. I'm currently undecided whether to catch some hours even though it's 7.50 am or whether that will result in sleep inertia.

haven't read your entire message, RedToothBrush, as we are never going to agree

I don't think not reading stuff by people you disagree with is likely to lead to greater understanding.

What transactivists fail to realise is that this isn't our first rodeo. They always out themselves from a seemingly naive "why can't you women just be kind?" until their exasperation at women refusing to comply with their instructions exposes the predictable "anti trans" tropes.

Hopefully women and parents on here can return to the incredibly thoughtful and insightful discussions that were being had about the challenge of parenting teenagers / young adults in the face of extreme transactivism

The research has not been done. The reason it is hard to find evidence (never mind proof) of the effects of longterm hormone treatment is that the existing studies are inadequate:

From "Interventions to suppress puberty in adolescents experiencing gender dysphoria or incongruence: a systematic review" published in the BMJ journal "Archives of Disease in Childhood" published April 9th 2024 states:

Conclusions There is a lack of high-quality research assessing puberty suppression in adolescents experiencing gender dysphoria/incongruence. No conclusions can be drawn about the impact on gender dysphoria, mental and psychosocial health or cognitive development. Bone health and height may be compromised during treatment. More recent studies published since April 2022 until January 2024 also support the conclusions of this review.

In April 2024 the Cass Report, to provide an evidence base upon which to make its recommendations, the Review commissioned the University of York to conduct a series of independent systematic reviews of existing evidence and new qualitative and quantitative research to build on the evidence base. The review found:

• The use of masculinising/feminising hormones in those under the age of 18 also presents many unknowns, despite their longstanding use in the adult transgender population. The lack of long-term follow-up data on those commencing treatment at an earlier age means we have inadequate information about the range of outcomes for this group.

There is evidence about the effect of puberty, which starts earlier than we currently realise, as the hormonal changes begin long before any physical signs appear. Once a person has entered male puberty, the effects are permanent and cannot be reversed by taking oestrogen.

@RedToothBrush that is a really good point you make that trans adults thwarting attempts to research trans treatment is about controlling the narrative - and that has huge parallels with anorexia.
@BonfireLady "But somewhere along the line many (most?) become victims and perpetrators."
I have a Goddaughter who I love who identifies as a trans man. When I travelled to visit her most recently I was confronted with the fact that alot of what she's playing with, with her identity and presentation, is very homophobic. It's like an identitarian power play, where she treats gay men in exactly the way (if I'm reading correctly) OP's son is treating women and girls - as a kind of novelty act, that it's fun to play as, not serious, real human beings. Play things.
Of course she's a victim, of sexism, of all sorts of horrible experiences. But there was something nasty that I got a glimpse of. I think victim / perpetrator is not always straightforward for female trans identified people either.

I find the comparison with anorexia useful too.

Can I ask you to imagine what it would be like if your young person had anorexia, AND if you took them to a doctor the likelihood is that the doctor would agree they were too fat and suggest they start ozempic or Mounjaro to help their thinness journey, AND your anorexic teen is not seen as a vulnerable person caught up in this ideology but is being tarred by the same brush as the people making the pro-ana websites, and it's their fault and choice, even though their teachers and the media told them that it's perfectly ok to be anorexic? AND you are being told as a parent that if you just made it very clear that they just need to eat and aren't too thin and stopped pandering it would all be solved?

That's how it feels this side of the fence.

That is exactly how it feels @GoldVermillion. And I believe that anorexia is not about food but feelings as it is with these kids with ASD identifying as the opposite sex and taking it too far.

Given we now know the high incidence of anorexia amongst autistic girls, I do really have to ask big questions over autistic groups. Especially since they have been traditionally dominated by males. There's always been this stuff about male and female brain banded about in connection with autism too. None of which is grounded in evidence.

We do however have a growing body of evidence about brain patterns and extremist behaviour. Which is mitigated by guess what?

Exposure to a broad range of differing views.

In their dreams. 🙄 If a man has gone through male puberty he will be on average, taller, stronger, with longer limbs and bigger, more powerful heart and lungs and a deeper voice. His gait will be different because of his narrower pelvis. Even if he has had face feminisation surgery (which most don't) there are so many small clues to actual sex when you see someone in person, not in photos.

Utter nonsense. Regardless of how he presents, a man cannot ever be anything other than a man - an adult member of the male sex - and as such has no place in a female single-sex space.

I certainly don't think you are completely unreasonable, but this sentence is interesting:

Changing sex and then living happily ever after as that new sex, and much happier than before, is true and real and possible.

What do you mean by "changing sex"? It's possible to change secondary sex characteristics to a simulation of the other sex; it's possible to artificially override someone's endocrine system to simulate the other sex. But to actually change someone's sex would require removing all the sex-related organs and replacing them with those of the other sex, and to change the body's endocrine system so that it self-sustainably supported all the functions of the surgically inserted opposite sex organs.

An FtM transition would for example need at least sometimes to result in a fully functioning penis, testicles and prostate which would allow the person to father a child without further medical intervention. An MtF transition in a person of child-bearing age would need at least sometimes to result in fully functioning ovaries, fallopian tubes, uterus, cervix and a vagina capable of a vaginal delivery (not to mention a functioning clitoris!), and breasts and endocrine system capable of supporting breast feeding without exogenous hormonal intervention. A genuine sex change cannot be a partial sex change. That's not even considering chromosomes.

At the moment, "bottom surgery" results in a mockery of the wonderful sex organs that most of us have. And it is at the expense of a great deal of pain and often damage to, for example, urinary tracts.

You sound like a really lovely grandparent, and your grandchild is lucky to have you. However, I have to say that it sounds as if you have taken on board something that I believe is coercive. You say that you will "get things wrong sometimes". Who persuaded you that it is wrong to use pronouns instinctively, but that you must police your own language and use pronouns as referring to your grandchild's self-identified "gender"? To me, this little issue is at the heart of what is wrong with gender identity theory, and it causes immense distress to those who are closest to someone who is trans-identifying.

It's possible that your grandchild's parents are fine with preferred pronouns, but I really doubt that is the case. Your grandchild has almost certainly been taught, by those pushing gender identity thinking, that it is hateful to use sex-based (and also history-based) pronouns, and that any parent or grandparent who loves them will use gender-based pronouns. But that helps to cement a person's trans identity, and from what I have seen every step further into transition, whether social or medical, gives a short term feeling of happiness but a long-term increase in dysphoria, because it becomes obvious that the transition has not "worked". So there is pressure to take the next step along a fairly predictable pathway. Loved ones are "not supportive enough", so distancing from them is "necessary" for the trans person's mental health. Going "no contact" allows the pain of not being affirmed and celebrated to be turned on parents and grandparents, who should have been "more supportive". And so it goes on, with hormones, mastectomies, and much more rarely genital surgery.

This controlling, coercive behaviour is extremely difficult to cope with. I am currently struggling with how to handle the demands my son is making; if I go along with them, I am encouraging further coercive behaviour, but if I push back, that is evidence that I am unloving and don't deserve a relationship with him.

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic I'm reluctant to engage because then I get accused of derailing the entire thread, but to answer your question, I meant change sex as far as is possible. Obviously even someone who has transitioned surgically, medically (hormones) and socially isn't going to be the same as a biological woman.

@RedToothBrush What's interesting about me being born and raised in Brighton, in the context of this discussion?

I already said - by showing a GR certificate, if those could only be issued after someone had gone through a full transition. (I don't agree with self-ID.) Nowhere did I say that trans people should be allowed access or not by whether their appearance passes. If they do pass, it's less likely they'd be asked to show their cert, of course, but if there's any doubt, they could show their GRC.

Not fallacious; The Vivienne was driven to suicide by the abuse they received as a result of being a man dressed as a woman.

Society operates on self regulation - citizens following the rules with sanctions for those that breach the laws of the land. Single sex spaces are an important part of life allowing women and girls privacy and safety from unknown men with most men respecting them because they're self disciplined & socially responsible.

There is no place for men - with or without a certificate - in women's spaces where women and girls undress or are vulnerable. The powerful and wealthy trans lobby groups could have fought for 3rd spaces. But that doesn't give men who think they're women the validation that they require. They require the presence of women and girls in states of undress for that validation.

It's been said before - women are not support humans for unhappy men Indecent exposure (flashing) and voyeurism are crimes. Wedging men into women's spaces enables these criminal offences.