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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Defending Women from Gender Ideology Extremism and Restoring Biological Truth

1000 replies

IwantToRetire · 21/01/2025 18:51

Purpose.

Ideologues who deny the biological reality of sex have increasingly used legal and other socially coercive means to permit men to self-identify as women and gain access to intimate single-sex spaces and activities designed for women, from women’s domestic abuse shelters to women’s workplace showers. This is wrong. Efforts to eradicate the biological reality of sex fundamentally attack women by depriving them of their dignity, safety, and well-being. The erasure of sex in language and policy has a corrosive impact not just on women but on the validity of the entire American system. Basing Federal policy on truth is critical to scientific inquiry, public safety, morale, and trust in government itself.

This unhealthy road is paved by an ongoing and purposeful attack against the ordinary and longstanding use and understanding of biological and scientific terms, replacing the immutable biological reality of sex with an internal, fluid, and subjective sense of self unmoored from biological facts. Invalidating the true and biological category of “woman” improperly transforms laws and policies designed to protect sex-based opportunities into laws and policies that undermine them, replacing longstanding, cherished legal rights and values with an identity-based, inchoate social concept.

This will defend women’s rights and protect freedom of conscience by using clear and accurate language and policies that recognize women are biologically female, and men are biologically male.

Policy and Definitions.

The policy is to recognize two sexes, male and female. These sexes are not changeable and are grounded in fundamental and incontrovertible reality:

(a) “Sex” shall refer to an individual’s immutable biological classification as either male or female. “Sex” is not a synonym for and does not include the concept of “gender identity.”

(b) “Women” or “woman” and “girls” or “girl” shall mean adult and juvenile human females, respectively.

(c) “Men” or “man” and “boys” or “boy” shall mean adult and juvenile human males, respectively.

(d) “Female” means a person belonging, at conception, to the sex that produces the large reproductive cell.

(e) “Male” means a person belonging, at conception, to the sex that produces the small reproductive cell.

(f) “Gender ideology” replaces the biological category of sex with an ever-shifting concept of self-assessed gender identity, permitting the false claim that males can identify as and thus become women and vice versa, and requiring all institutions of society to regard this false claim as true. Gender ideology includes the idea that there is a vast spectrum of genders that are disconnected from one’s sex. Gender ideology is internally inconsistent, in that it diminishes sex as an identifiable or useful category but nevertheless maintains that it is possible for a person to be born in the wrong sexed body.

(g) “Gender identity” reflects a fully internal and subjective sense of self, disconnected from biological reality and sex and existing on an infinite continuum, that does not provide a meaningful basis for identification and cannot be recognized as a replacement for sex.

Recognizing Women Are Biologically Distinct From Men.

Full statement text at https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/defending-women-from-gender-ideology-extremism-and-restoring-biological-truth-to-the-federal-government/

Every news outlet is reporting this as anti trans legisliaton.

Not one has reported it is about women's rights.

That's why I started this thread, although there are others as hoping the search engines will pick it up.

Seems that women's rights are so unimportant to anyone, that even when there is a political statement about them, the media reports it is about something else.

Defending Women From Gender Ideology Extremism And Restoring Biological Truth To The Federal Government – The White House

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including section 7301 of title 5, United

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/defending-women-from-gender-ideology-extremism-and-restoring-biological-truth-to-the-federal-government/

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14
Greyskybluesky · 27/01/2025 16:18

lifeturnsonadime · 27/01/2025 16:16

Why should males have their gender respected when this removes women's sex based rights which were introduced to protect the reality of oppression based on the differences between the sexed bodies of males and females?

And is it respecting their gender if management ask that person to change in a private space or at home?

Sounds very "othering" and transphobic to me...

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:18

lifeturnsonadime · 27/01/2025 16:16

Why should males have their gender respected when this removes women's sex based rights which were introduced to protect the reality of oppression based on the differences between the sexed bodies of males and females?

I disagree that respecting a persons gender removes women’s sex based rights. I think I’ve made this clear.

lifeturnsonadime · 27/01/2025 16:20

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:18

I disagree that respecting a persons gender removes women’s sex based rights. I think I’ve made this clear.

Why, when oppression is based on the reality of our sexed bodies, does allowing a person with the sexed body of the oppressor class in the name of 'respecting gender' into single sex spaces, not remove our sex based protections?

You have not made any attempt whatsoever to explain this conundrum.

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:21

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:16

The training group is made up mainly of teenage girls and women in their twenties. The tw is a lot older but due to male advantage, can compete with females a lot younger. It is not fair, in my opinion, but is happening a lot everywhere. You must have noticed?

Ok so it’s an adult, amateur sports training group? I don’t have a problem with a trans woman being included in this scenario . I think that’s reasonable.
But this should not entail them exposing their penis to teenage girls.

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:21

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:18

I disagree that respecting a persons gender removes women’s sex based rights. I think I’ve made this clear.

Please can you explain what respecting a persons gender actually means in practice? Because for a lot of trans rights activists it does include the right to change and shower with women and girls. That is why people are telling you that this respecting of gender removes womens sex based rights.

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:24

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:21

Ok so it’s an adult, amateur sports training group? I don’t have a problem with a trans woman being included in this scenario . I think that’s reasonable.
But this should not entail them exposing their penis to teenage girls.

In the training sessions, some are adults but some are younger. I am not sure you understand what is meant by "amateur" in athletics. Yes, some of the participants are taking part for fun, but others (including the trans woman) compete for national titles and may be selected for international competitions. The whole situation is very demoralizing for the women concerned - whether or not they are amateurs, they deserve fair competition, no?

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:24

Greyskybluesky · 27/01/2025 16:18

And is it respecting their gender if management ask that person to change in a private space or at home?

Sounds very "othering" and transphobic to me...

I think it’s totally fine (and necessary (!) ) to ask an adult person not to expose their penis to teenage girls. This is entirely compatible with respecting that person’s gender.
Obviously this trans person is “out” anyway if they are openly doing this, so the concern about outing them is irrelevant in this scenario .

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:26

I think it’s totally fine (and necessary (!) ) to ask an adult person not to expose their penis to teenage girls. This is entirely compatible with respecting that person’s gender.
Surely you can see that by making this request you are admitting that this person is NOT a woman? This is what is usually considered as transphobic. If you want to differentiate between male and female bodies then you need to prioritize sex - which brings us back to square one.

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:28

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:24

In the training sessions, some are adults but some are younger. I am not sure you understand what is meant by "amateur" in athletics. Yes, some of the participants are taking part for fun, but others (including the trans woman) compete for national titles and may be selected for international competitions. The whole situation is very demoralizing for the women concerned - whether or not they are amateurs, they deserve fair competition, no?

I don’t see that one trans woman’s participation is demoralising: sorry. Is she winning national competitions?

And I don’t place demoralisation about not always winning at sports in the same category / severity of harm as experience of gender dysphoria.

Also there are complex scientific issues here about what advantage a person actually has to do with transition and hormones. But that’s an aside.

lifeturnsonadime · 27/01/2025 16:29

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:24

I think it’s totally fine (and necessary (!) ) to ask an adult person not to expose their penis to teenage girls. This is entirely compatible with respecting that person’s gender.
Obviously this trans person is “out” anyway if they are openly doing this, so the concern about outing them is irrelevant in this scenario .

The trans person should respect the fact that single sex spaces were designed to protect women from oppression from people with the sexed bodies that trans women have and that the two sets of issues are incompatible so they should stay out of single sex spaces which were not designed to protect them.

Whether their penis is visible or not, and in too many cases it is (see Lia Thomas in the swim meet changing rooms) should be irrelevant.

Women need protection from our oppressor class which is all male bodied people no matter their gender identity.

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:30

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:26

I think it’s totally fine (and necessary (!) ) to ask an adult person not to expose their penis to teenage girls. This is entirely compatible with respecting that person’s gender.
Surely you can see that by making this request you are admitting that this person is NOT a woman? This is what is usually considered as transphobic. If you want to differentiate between male and female bodies then you need to prioritize sex - which brings us back to square one.

Absolutely not. It does not. You can acknowledge this person has a penis, and that it is not ok to expose this to teenage girls, whilst also respecting her gender / cognitive sex. Please refer to earlier posts.

Greyskybluesky · 27/01/2025 16:32

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:24

I think it’s totally fine (and necessary (!) ) to ask an adult person not to expose their penis to teenage girls. This is entirely compatible with respecting that person’s gender.
Obviously this trans person is “out” anyway if they are openly doing this, so the concern about outing them is irrelevant in this scenario .

No it's horribly transphobic, I'm afraid.

If the vagina-owning women are able to walk around stark naked in the women's changing rooms if they want to, but the penis-owning woman is told to change somewhere else/at home - that's discriminatory and transphobic. Isn't it?

Helleofabore · 27/01/2025 16:33

"Also there are complex scientific issues here about what advantage a person actually has to do with transition and hormones."

Actually, there is no complex scientific issues about what advantage a person has to do with transition and hormones if a male person has gone through male puberty even partially. There is some consensus that more research may be needed for excluding male people who have never been through any part of male puberty. I suspect that developmentally there will be some advantage that will still be discovered due to height and some other aspects but for now the evidence is clear.

For anyone interested in seeing the evidence, here is a thread specifically with those links.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1 

Save female sports evidence thread | Mumsnet

I am conscious that the Break it Down for me thread is nearly full. I am therefore hoping that this thread can be an archive thread just for the sport...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:33

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:28

I don’t see that one trans woman’s participation is demoralising: sorry. Is she winning national competitions?

And I don’t place demoralisation about not always winning at sports in the same category / severity of harm as experience of gender dysphoria.

Also there are complex scientific issues here about what advantage a person actually has to do with transition and hormones. But that’s an aside.

So it doesn’t matter if the race is fair because it is only one person? How many males are the women supposed to accommodate until they complain? Of course it is demoralizing. Even one male in female races sends a message that whilst men are entitled to fair competition, women just have to "be kind" and put up with it. Being selected for national and international competitions (as this person has been) means a female competitor who has trained hard is left at home. How is that fair?

Up until a few years ago this person was running in the male races but gave up due to age and transitioned and now is winning again - against women 20 - 30 years younger.

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:35

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:30

Absolutely not. It does not. You can acknowledge this person has a penis, and that it is not ok to expose this to teenage girls, whilst also respecting her gender / cognitive sex. Please refer to earlier posts.

You seem to be living in an ideal world. As stated previously, said person has categorically stated that they wish to change with the women and girls.

lifeturnsonadime · 27/01/2025 16:36

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:33

So it doesn’t matter if the race is fair because it is only one person? How many males are the women supposed to accommodate until they complain? Of course it is demoralizing. Even one male in female races sends a message that whilst men are entitled to fair competition, women just have to "be kind" and put up with it. Being selected for national and international competitions (as this person has been) means a female competitor who has trained hard is left at home. How is that fair?

Up until a few years ago this person was running in the male races but gave up due to age and transitioned and now is winning again - against women 20 - 30 years younger.

You're on a hiding to nothing here @teentantrums despite being a self proclaimed feminist the issues that female bodied people face due to the loss of single sex spaces and sports mean nothing to Lost.

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:36

Greyskybluesky · 27/01/2025 16:32

No it's horribly transphobic, I'm afraid.

If the vagina-owning women are able to walk around stark naked in the women's changing rooms if they want to, but the penis-owning woman is told to change somewhere else/at home - that's discriminatory and transphobic. Isn't it?

You are right, perhaps it is transphobic.
But I believe it’s a legitimate boundary to hold, given the current state of our culture/ society.

Helleofabore · 27/01/2025 16:37

Lostcat · 27/01/2025 16:28

I don’t see that one trans woman’s participation is demoralising: sorry. Is she winning national competitions?

And I don’t place demoralisation about not always winning at sports in the same category / severity of harm as experience of gender dysphoria.

Also there are complex scientific issues here about what advantage a person actually has to do with transition and hormones. But that’s an aside.

And yet, there are now national world female sports records that are out of female people's reach because they have been set by a male person.

But hey... no demoralisation happening here. Nothing to see here.

How fucking dismissive of the needs of female sports people can we get on this thread?

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:38

lifeturnsonadime · 27/01/2025 16:36

You're on a hiding to nothing here @teentantrums despite being a self proclaimed feminist the issues that female bodied people face due to the loss of single sex spaces and sports mean nothing to Lost.

You are right but I really don’t understand how someone who has daughters can have so little empathy for these female athletes! It beggars belief.

Greyskybluesky · 27/01/2025 16:39

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:38

You are right but I really don’t understand how someone who has daughters can have so little empathy for these female athletes! It beggars belief.

Who has daughters?

AliceNutterWasAWoman · 27/01/2025 16:39

@Lostcat How about exposing their penis to an elderly woman with dementia, or a female survivor of male sexual abuse or a Muslim woman? Is that ok with you?

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 27/01/2025 16:42

@Lostcat there's currently 2 different cases concerning female nurses being made to change with male trans women. There was the trans woman swimming judge who was walking through the female changing room with children changing (against policy and unnecessary), there was the wi spa incident. It is happening over and over again. Females need our sex based rights back

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:47

Greyskybluesky · 27/01/2025 16:39

Who has daughters?

Lostcat, I believe! (Or did I read that wrong?)

lifeturnsonadime · 27/01/2025 16:48

teentantrums · 27/01/2025 16:47

Lostcat, I believe! (Or did I read that wrong?)

No Lostcat said they had 2 daughters.

SionnachRuadh · 27/01/2025 16:50

A lot of this goes back to the Obama schools policy requiring that single sex spaces in schools should by default cease to be sex based and instead become gender based - which gave open access to any boy saying he felt like a girl.

There was a generous concession that schools might consider alternative provision for those girls who objected to penis people in their toilets and changing rooms. That's for the girls brave enough to stand up against the current ideological fashion.

If you want to know why Trump's EO is popular, a good place to start would be irate parents turning up at school board meetings demanding to know why their daughters were being exposed to penises, and the schools gaslighting them by saying that there were only girls in the girls' changing rooms.

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