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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Three-day ban on Reddit for “hate”

1000 replies

ConversingWithStrangers · 30/12/2024 10:45

The only thing I can think of is posting on a UK sub about male violence. A man said that it’s not just men who have a problem with being violent because he’d been assaulted by a trans woman. I replied, “how did you know your assailant was trans?”.

They literally have subs for men to masturbate to videos of women who have a look of being “dead behind the eyes” they’ve been abused so much.

(It’s either that or somebody doesn’t like my crochet advice).

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/01/2025 10:24

The problem is it’s not an ideology.

The problem is that it is ideology. This idea of how the world works is strongly disputed and it doesn't just affect the people who believe it.

As pp said some people claim to "sense god". I don't believe in god, so I don't believe them. And I don't believe in gender identity ideology either. So I don't believe men when they claim to feel like women.

Helleofabore · 04/01/2025 10:24

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 10:02

How do we then stop men who do not have a "subconscious sex" of female from doing so? Men who absolutely think of themselves as men but merely wish to perve on women, assault them and win in fields where they could not win against male competitors.

This feels like progress- if we can at least come to an understanding that there is a real and legitimate difference in these things, and that actually these two groups of people really have nothing to do with each other at all.

It we can agree on that, then we can have the conversation about your concern. I suppose we’d have to first establish whether it is a concern that has a significant risk , or just a fear/ projection / fantasy that comes from fear of change. Then once we have established if it is a risk, we can have a conversation about what sort of safeguards might need to be in place to identify one group from the other.

And the cycle starts again.

No, no progress has been made. Cher has posed the exact same question asked on this board every day. All Cher did was change the words 'who say they are transgender' to 'have a subconscious sex'.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/01/2025 10:26

This has nothing to do with men pretending to be trans to victimise women. Men can do these things without needing to pretend to be trans.

Who said they need to pretend? All males who identify as women are "trans". They're all just males, and statistically pose more risk to women than other women.

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 04/01/2025 10:28

Well of course, everyone has always known that there is a difference between the males with dysphoric thoughts about their bodies - regardless of what the cause of that may be - and those who might claim it for predatory reasons

absolutely….unfortunately although there are many many different reasons why someone considers themselves to be trans they are all treated exactly the same

which again is something thats been said many many times on FWR

NotBadConsidering · 04/01/2025 10:28

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 10:21

The problem is it’s not an ideology. It’s a real human experience . Trans experience is real. Whether you choose to accept it and believe it or not won’t change that.

Christians’ experiences are real. They experience God. It doesn’t make God real. I can’t see a difference. Both “just know”.

It doesn’t matter what they experience, or what they claim is real to them. Other people cannot be forced to believe something that is ideological, and society cannot be forced to allow one ideology to take precedence of rights over others.

SnakesAndArrows · 04/01/2025 10:28

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 10:23

This has nothing to do with men pretending to be trans to victimise women. Men can do these things without needing to pretend to be trans.

Edited

Of course they don’t have to pretend they are trans to do this, but a sizeable number do and some of them have been named on this thread. Or are people like Isla Bryson “subconsciously female”?

Helleofabore · 04/01/2025 10:29

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 10:19

Because being trans is just another axis of human diversity, like disability, ethnicity, sexuality. It’s a fundamental characteristic of a person over which someone has no control. It’s extremely painful, violent and oppressive to require a person to hide/ suppress the fact that they are trans - (eg just like sexuality).

Being a transmaxxer (which btw is hardly a thing) is none of these things

Edited

And here is the discrimination against transmaxxers. Here is where someone who claims to be here to support people with transgender identities denies a group their transgender identities.

Well, I believe last time this poster called them incels which really is derogatory.

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 10:30

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/01/2025 10:24

The problem is it’s not an ideology.

The problem is that it is ideology. This idea of how the world works is strongly disputed and it doesn't just affect the people who believe it.

As pp said some people claim to "sense god". I don't believe in god, so I don't believe them. And I don't believe in gender identity ideology either. So I don't believe men when they claim to feel like women.

Well you can put your fingers in your ears and sing “la la la” all you want. It won’t stop trans people being born and being trans, because it’s not a belief akin to religion, it’s a fundamental characteristic of a person, that very probably has a biological/
developmental underpinning.

It is what it is.

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 10:31

SnakesAndArrows · 04/01/2025 10:28

Of course they don’t have to pretend they are trans to do this, but a sizeable number do and some of them have been named on this thread. Or are people like Isla Bryson “subconsciously female”?

but a sizeable number do

this I believe is a perception you have acquired from radicalisation on social media. Its rooted in fear of trans people

LoobiJee · 04/01/2025 10:31

Helleofabore · 04/01/2025 09:36

“Subconscious sex" is a term primarily used within transgender discussions , referring to an individual's deeply ingrained sense of their own gender identity, often described as the "feeling" of what sex their body should be on a subconscious level."

"Someone assigned female at birth might have a "subconscious sex" of male, meaning their brain primarily experiences itself as male despite their physical body being female."

It is important for readers to see these discussion cycles. It does follow a loose script.

In this case, we are now discussing the potential of a person's 'subconscious' sex. A 'subconscious sex' which is only based on what they believe the opposite sex's reactions to the world would be.

Nothing posted about 'subconscious sex' provides and foundation to why any policy where sex matters should give priority at all to gender. In fact, there is not even logic to support a 'subconscious sex' because a male person can only ever imagine how a female person would interact with the world.

If someone wants to categorise that variation of thought, it can only ever be grouped loosely into 'a male person's belief in how a female person interacts with the world that is not ever based in reality'. This category does not fit into the female person group and it has no overlapping to make any sub group. However, the people who discuss this group as being a valid sub group in the grouping of female people will resort to emotionally manipulative tactics to argue that it is a valid sub group.

That is then why we have to have the discussions about how 'sex segregation' is not important in society in any case, so therefore a person's gender should be the only thing considered in all things non-medical.

That is also why the questions relating to sports are ignored. And often the posts pointing out that there are 130+ genders, including those genders who can change genders regularly and frequently throughout the day.

All while gender fluidity is then used to scaffold the discussion about detransitioners. But is 'gender' if fluid, how can anyone then say that a male who has claimed that they have a 'subconscious' belief that they are female know what is their male experience and what is their female experience?

Usually there is also included a philosophical theoretical approach that revolves around 'I feel I am this thing, therefore I am this thing'. (thing being a concept) This approach is used as an emotionally manipulative crutch because it relies on the reader to accept that the person who is saying they 'are' something they are materially not, is what they say they are. It is circular. If I say I am this concept, I am that concept because all that concept is built on is belief that you are that concept and acting as if you are that concept or something similar.

Either way, the motivation is that a person who believes that they are something they materially are not needs to be treated as if their belief is real.

Because it then cycles back to 'Just because you say it is impossible, this is that person's life and it is their personal material reality. You just cannot experience it therefore you shouldn't be saying it is impossible'. And 'you just aren't open to other people's possibilities'.

It really is an incoherent theory.

There is always running through these discussions the very emotive points being raised about how distressing it is for people with a particular gender identity. And that we should be focused on making those people happy through accepting their beliefs as being the priority given in policy, law and in the social sphere.

Then comes the distraction about the evolution of the meanings of words and what do words mean anyway, the meanings of words change and apparently if a group changes the meanings of those words society must surely accept that and move on.

Which leads to the discussion about the meaning of the word female and male. Which leads to the mischaracterisation of what people who believe that humans cannot change sex believe.

Of course, most developmental biologists and medical science experts will confirm that the sex category of a human body is based on whether the body is formed around the production of large or small gametes and that the past, current or future production status of those gametes in that body does not change the categorisation. This has become easier with modern technology, but it can also be said that medieval doctors would have used this form of categorisation within the limitations of their discovery ability.

This discussion on the meaning of words can be referenced to philosophical streams of thought such as queer theory which seeks to destabilise the establishment, ie. the established meanings of words and the established facts of biological science.

It was why we had the very long discussion about who are lesbians and who are not.

Plus don't forget that same sex orientations are an important false comparator for those trying to argue that gender should be prioritised over people's sex categories. And it is a false comparator. But we still see 'being trans is innate just like sexual orientation'.

However, getting back to words, the script then follows that in any case a group of people can always attribute different meanings to the established words and that is ok, isn't it? Some transgender people can use the word 'sex' and some use the word 'gender' to mean the same thing and that should be acceptable to society. All while ignoring the ramifications on laws, policies and society in general if even within this specific group of people there is a lack of coherency in the usage of words, let alone rendering laws and policies meaningless with that lack of coherency.

The script avoids any discussion on the very real outcomes of all this philosophical theorising that has already been accepted as material reality. Sports, prisons, single sex spaces. And irreversible medical treatments that being done based on a philosophical belief - and one that is fluid.

Of course, that fluidity gets minimised and quickly moved on from because it cracks open the foundation to show there is no solid foundation underpinning the theories.

And so the script rolls on.

Excellent analysis. However you missed out that the script also involves scornfully dismissing women’s rights generally, and more specifically women and girls’ right to the privacy and dignity of single-sex female-only male-free spaces when in a state of undress as…

”prudery”

“unjustified”

“profoundly conservative”

”highly irrational”

“childish”

and equivalent to the Taliban

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/01/2025 10:32

Well you can put your fingers in your ears and sing “la la la” all you want. It won’t stop trans people being born and being trans, because it’s not a belief akin to religion, it’s a fundamental characteristic of a person, that very probably has a biological/
developmental underpinning.

It is what it is.

It is a belief akin to a religion, regardless of how hard you believe in it 🤷‍♀️

You can keep saying it isn't, but everyone else here can see that it is

SnakesAndArrows · 04/01/2025 10:33

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 10:21

The problem is it’s not an ideology. It’s a real human experience . Trans experience is real. Whether you choose to accept it and believe it or not won’t change that.

In saying this, you sound exactly like a person with a religious faith.

Just like people with faith, you have a belief based on what other people have said to you, with no corroborating evidence.

SnakesAndArrows · 04/01/2025 10:34

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 10:31

but a sizeable number do

this I believe is a perception you have acquired from radicalisation on social media. Its rooted in fear of trans people

Edited

Are you suggesting that the newspaper reports are fake?

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 04/01/2025 10:36

Just like people with faith, you have a belief based on what other people have said to you, with no corroborating evidence.

this

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/01/2025 10:36

Even if it did have a "biological/developmental underpinning", males are still male and psychological conditions can be genetic.

Helleofabore · 04/01/2025 10:37

Chersfrozenface · 04/01/2025 10:22

I suppose we’d have to first establish whether it is a concern that has a significant risk , or just a fear/ projection / fantasy that comes from fear of change.

As fine an example as I have ever seen of ignorance, wilful or otherwise, of the lived experience of women and girls.

Some stats.

97% of women aged 18-24 have experienced sexual harassment at some point. (UN survey)

25% of women have been victims of sexual violence since the age of 16. 94%
of survivors of rape or attempted rape are women. (Rape Crisis figures)

98% of sexual assaults are committed by men.

Yes, Cher. It is not the only act of misogyny shown by posters who attempt this line of argument but it is highly concerning.

Adding to your stats, if I may, here are some more.

I wonder if the answer to the question about how to tell which ones are really transgender will be answered on this thread:

This was a question answered in parliament last month:
https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298.
Question from Rebecca Paul (MP Reigate): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, with reference to the HMPPS Offender Equalities Annual Report 2023-2024, published on 28 November 2024, how many of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female were convicted of a sexual offence.

Answer from Sir Richard Dakin (MP Scunthorpe): 23 December 2024
Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences. Offence data was not available for 1 individual.

Of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female on 31 March 2024, the number convicted of a sexual offence is five or fewer. We do not provide exact data for such small sample sizes as it risks identification of individuals. This approach is in line with our standards on data disclosure.

To put this into perspective with what we already knew from FOI information. I posted the information to a regular poster from FWR on another thread, who did not acknowledge the information at all, so it seems sticking the info here is appropriate:

Here is data from the MoJ

Here is an FOI request from 30 April 2024

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/populationoftransgenderoffend/response/2641337/attach/html/7/FOI%20240322022%20Annex%20A.xlsx.html

Up to the 31st March 2023, the MoJ stated that of the 88 male transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
48 rapes,
0 attempted rapes,
10 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
13 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
0 indecent assault or gross indecency
6 sexual activity with a child under 16
0 other
77 listed here.... BUT there is a total of 88 in the total so there is 11 crimes not noted.

Possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child has not been recorded in this FOI.

However, there is are further discrepancies in the data of the following when you look at TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE.

1 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
3 rapes
2 sexual activity with a child under 16
3 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
This equals 9 additional... however the sum for TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE is 99.

Therefore 2 more sex crimes have been hidden from this data.

There were 203 males who were declared as transgender in the prison at the time.

There were 24 NB who were not segregated into male and female. What is key here, is that THIS IS NON-GRC HOLDERS. And we all know that males holding GRCs have increased and they are excluded from this data. NO female people with transgender identities were sentenced to a principal sexual offence. There were 41 female people with transgender identities in UK prisons at that time.
As a comparison, I have stats that say as of April 2019 that the general male MoJ data for male sex offenders was just 16.8% of the male prison population. And there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders.
I will leave you to do your own sums. But... even using the figure of 88/203 is 43.3%. (And that doesn't include making or possessing indecent photographs of a child remember.)

By the way this exercise was done in 2021. And I checked this data myself from the data source and it was correct at the time. So, it will give some back ground to the above.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/breakdown_ofoffencescommitted
The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was

40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other

The 97 sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.

And that according to that FOI 197 prisoners are transgender.

FOI 240322022 Annex A.xlsx

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/population_of_transgender_offend/response/2641337/attach/html/7/FOI%20240322022%20Annex%20A.xlsx.html

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/01/2025 10:38

I also think that only a tiny amount of "trans people" actually have any psychological condition relating to dysphoria about their sex.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/01/2025 10:39

And that it isn't the responsibility of the rest of the world to alleviate it.

NotBadConsidering · 04/01/2025 10:39

I’m predicting

n+1

Helleofabore · 04/01/2025 10:39

LoobiJee · 04/01/2025 10:31

Excellent analysis. However you missed out that the script also involves scornfully dismissing women’s rights generally, and more specifically women and girls’ right to the privacy and dignity of single-sex female-only male-free spaces when in a state of undress as…

”prudery”

“unjustified”

“profoundly conservative”

”highly irrational”

“childish”

and equivalent to the Taliban

Well it was a generalised analysis loobi and it did get rather long. Can you imagine the length of the post though will all the dismissal attempts?

And yes, the scorn. The derision. The vile misogyny underlining it all.

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 10:41

SnakesAndArrows · 04/01/2025 10:33

In saying this, you sound exactly like a person with a religious faith.

Just like people with faith, you have a belief based on what other people have said to you, with no corroborating evidence.

Except there’s an absolute tonne of scientific evidence on trans experience . All you have to do is read some.

Datun · 04/01/2025 10:41

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 09:48

Hey to be clear I’m here to focus on discussing the topic with people who are interested in engaging in a productive exchange of ideas about the subject matter and are willing to at least consider the information being shared and discussing aspects of it.

I won’t be responding to certain posters who are only interested in arguing/ weaponising (and attacking) my person/ swearing/ being rude.

I know well who these posters are, so while I can’t stop you from directing comments at me, don’t expect any acknowledgment or response.

Edited

It's TRA bingo.

Won't discuss the massive cohort of trans identified men who have AGP.

Try to pretend that lesbianism includes men. Because 'lesbians I know'.

Talk about women's privacy and dignity a something to disregard, because it's likened to women under the Taliban.

In terms of predation - women do it too.

In terms of trans people who should have access to women - only this narrow category, (determined by me and entirely ignoring trans people that I disagree with).

Subconscious sex (being trans) should be a way of categorising people, even though I can't explain why. Or how it helps anyone except men wanting access to women.

Subconscious sex (being trans) is something that all the people I am advocating for feel but I can't give you any criteria for it.

And, of course, the most telling one of all, it doesn't really matter if women say no, these are all the reasons why you have to do it anyway. Because it's progress.

Lostcat · 04/01/2025 10:42

SnakesAndArrows · 04/01/2025 10:34

Are you suggesting that the newspaper reports are fake?

The tabloid media often massively exaggerates what are essentially non stories- like children who think they are furries etc. I’m sure there are a few individuals out there who they can write sensationalised stories about . The world is full of all sorts.

NotBadConsidering · 04/01/2025 10:43

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/01/2025 10:38

I also think that only a tiny amount of "trans people" actually have any psychological condition relating to dysphoria about their sex.

I completely agree. There is a small number of people who have a genuine dysmorphia about their bodies. There could have been progress with how to help these people if those who treat them hadn’t capitulated to the same ideology. Treating clinicians abdicated responsibility because it was too hard, the activists gave them an “out” and the pretenders jumped on board and co-opted it for their own gains.

Helleofabore · 04/01/2025 10:44

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/01/2025 10:36

Even if it did have a "biological/developmental underpinning", males are still male and psychological conditions can be genetic.

Yes. This is key.

Even 'if' a group has been identified as being categorised as transgender based on a biological finding, societies response should not be that this male person is to be treated as being female for the purposes where sex matters.

That unlikely discovery in the future will not change the discussion around the need for single sex provisions where sex matters.

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