CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

[Chariothorses]

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

Those poor women who thought they were in relationships with men who turned out to be undercover coppers.

And no criminal charges brought in those cases for reasons I cannot comprehend. State sanctioned sexual violation of women and not one officer has faced justice afaik.

I’ve just had a thought.

Maybe Butters doesn’t want to go to the trans-friendly places where they could be completely open about their sex, or to use appropriate dating apps, because that would be invalidating and because it wouldn’t be necessary for actual women.

Oh I get it, but I’m wondering whether there’s an extra element horror at having sex with the wrong kind of person if you’ve never had, imagined, or desired sex with that kind of person.

I think so, and I think most bisexuals understand that people do, but some "pansexual" people I've encountered, particularly younger people who've grown up with "queer" everything bring their social norm, don't appear to. Which obviously doesn't mean a bisexual person can't be equally violated by someone deceiving them about their sex, just that they don't necessarily feel the same natural repulsion (for want of a better word) to having sex against their orientation as a gay or straight person.

So ubiquitous was it once that it gained a pair of UK-specific names: the 'Portsmouth Defence' and the 'Guardsman's Defence' and until shockingly recently it would generally still be assumed that any LGBT murder victim was killed because of it.

I find it improbable that you don't know this - I'm fairly confident that you're older than me and it was just a fact of life for LGBT people when I was growing up.

So it was actually about homophobia? Nothing to do with "trans" which only applied to a tiny number of people, even fewer of whom could successfully pass as the opposite sex.

Isn't it convenient to use something that's LGB and pretend it was actually the T. I think we've come across that before...

I have to say, this thread keeps reminding me of the IT crowd episode where Douglas mishears and thinks April is from Iran.

Hahaha

You're talking about male violence again, ButterflyHatched, may I suggest that you find a forum which is 90something% male and challenge them with these accounts of male violence, and encourage them to do something about their behaviour.

While you're there, you could ask them to be nicer to transwomen in men's toilets, so they could feel safe there, and that way women's toilets could be kept as single-sex spaces.

I have a question but no expectations of an honest answer from BH.

If someone said to you "I believe that being a woman relates, in some way, to having a female body" is that a transphobic belief or not?

Just that, not a different thing with different words. That sentiment itself - that a female body and the state of "being a woman" have any connection at all.

Transphobia is, broadly, throwing homophobia and misogyny in a blender to make a particularly virulent bigotry smoothie and up until the mid 00's or so most people didn't even make a distinction. Unsurprisingly I was paying quite close attention - I didn't have the luxury of ignorance.

Sure.

No, I don't think it's inherently transphobic to say there's an embodied component of womanhood.

That's certainly how I understand it, but I wouldn't stop being a woman if my neurological tissue was isolated from the rest of my body and migrated to a synaptic scaffold inside a life support system - and I don't think any other woman would either.

The pattern of information that makes up the person I grew into is one that self-classifies as 'woman'.

I've yet to see any real transphobia anywhere in the UK. What I have seen is a nasty bunch of TRA/MRA types throwing around the accusation of transphobia whenever anyone (particularly women) refuse to bow down to the insane demands of the "trans movement" over language, sports, spaces and our bodies. Now we have you claiming that it's transphobic to hold trans people to the same legal standards as everyone else when it comes to obtaining sexual consent oh and that only a transphobic, homophobic bigot for not wanting to have sex with someone who isn't the sex that they represent themselves as.
Also transphobia can't be homophobic or misogynistic as the whole notion of gender ideology is the epitome of homophobia and misogyny on steriods

Well at least you've made your lack of awareness of our daily lived reality clear.

How ironic Butters! I think we can say the same about you.

I mean, this reply is just mumbo-jumbo.

But thanks for trying anyway @popeydokey

So, no examples of a trans panic defence at all. How very surprising, you normally pepper these threads with links to evidence.

ButterflyHatched The pattern of information that makes up the person I grew into is one that self-classifies as 'woman'.

whereas the rest of us just have to make do with objective observable biological reality.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5232938-i-am-a-brain-in-a-jar-ama?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I would like to know what those patterns are and how they compare to women.

So, no examples of a trans panic defence at all. How very surprising, you normally pepper these threads with links to evidence.

very understated

My pattern of information self classifies as bullshit

What a wonderful world we might be living in had anyone bothered putting the energy into ending male violence- whoever it’s directed at and however they present or identify- rather than causing as much aggro as possible for any women who disagree trans women are women.

What a fucking waste of time.

That's certainly how I understand it, but I wouldn't stop being a woman if my neurological tissue was isolated from the rest of my body and migrated to a synaptic scaffold inside a life support system - and I don't think any other woman would either.

I can falsify your statement: I feel quite strongly that if my brain were put into a man's body, then I would be a man. I wouldn't be wild about it, and my personality would be quite quirky, having been shaped by X chromosomes, œstrogen, and a lifetime's socialisation, but I would rather live as a man than compromise my health.

I was curious about how others felt, so started a 'brain in a jar' thread on AIBU, and it turns out that 70% disagree with me, so your instinct was correct.