CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

[Chariothorses]

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

Does anyone know if TW with a GRC would be counted as women for the purpose of this legislation? Or will it depend on the Supreme Court ruling?

It says sex registered at birth so a transwomen with or without a grc is a man under this criminal law.
The supreme crt is about civil law so not relevant to this guidance

The short answer is no. Uninformed consent is not consent. A tw with a GRC could offer it as part of their defence or in mitigation but it ain't a get out of jail free card.

Sex by deception and Spousal veto were two pieces of legislation TRAs were trying to stealthily remove. How nice that the days of sneaking things in are gone. We will eventually remove or neuter the GRA. It was never intended to be used in the manner they are trying, it was simply a mechanism to allow transsexuals to have same sex marriage before civil partnerships.

The guidance refers to sex registered at birth, not legal sex.

Also, it is guidance, not a regulation, so is intended to illustrate and illuminate, not provide every possible example of an offence. In the end, it's the court which decides whether sex has been obtained by deception or not, which could depend on how well the case is presented.

There's some wild case law around this, such as the Arab Israeli jailed for having (casual, consensual) sex with a Jewish Israeli woman without mentioning that he was not Jewish.

And in England, this case:

https://www.herts.police.uk/news/hertfordshire/news/2024/may-2024/bishops-stortford-man-jailed-for-sexual-offences/

(The offender was dressed as a woman and the victim was very drunk.)

Also, what @Hoardasurass and @JanesLittleGirl said.

I don't know how to communicate to you quite how aptly that quote has applied to my experience of men throughout my life. You think men just slap us on the shoulder and say 'ok bro, no homo' if they find out we're trans? Trans Panic Defence is a well-known term for a reason.

No it's really, really not. Lying about wearing a condom is a clear violation of bodily autonomy.

Oh absolutely. I find transphobia a real turn-off, alongside homophobia, misogyny, racism and ableism, for example.

I don't tend to find my attraction has much to do with a person's gender presentation or sex assigned at birth. I acknowledge that this isn't universal, though and people are allowed to fancy whoever they fancy.

A man deceiving a straight man or a lesbian that he is female in order that they will have sone form of sexual relations with him is a clear violation too.

No it's really, really not. Lying about wearing a condom is a clear violation of bodily autonomy.

Deceiving someone about your sex so you can have access to their body is a clear violation of bodily autonomy.

"So you can have access to their body" errr what? I don't know how you prefer to do your intimacy but I certainly prefer to do mine as part of a mutual, cooperative and responsive process of affectionate contact that involves the careful and sober discussion of boundaries.

That's good, I guess you won't withhold what sex you are then.

As part of that careful and sober discussion of boundaries, a person would disclose the sex they are to the other person. Mutual, co-operative and responsive process and all.

So if intimacy is built up with careful and sober discussion of boundaries, why have we had so many posts about fear from disclosing. There is a lack of consistency across this discussion.

Please name 1 UK case where a man or woman has successfully used "trans panic" as a defence against assault or attempted murder/murder.
We both know that you won't answer my question @ButterflyHatched because it's not a recognised legal defence in the UK nor is gay panic, but I'm sure that you'll keep trying to claim it is just as you keep claiming that the equality act and or a grc allows you (general you) to sexually assault people by gaining sex by deception.
I do have 1 question that you might answer though, why do you believe that your want to have sex with someone is more important than their right to give informed consent?

So is lying about your sex it's exactly the same thing they are both gaining sex by deception. It's the same law, crime and result.
The guidance and law is clear both are predatory sex offenders.
I would say that if you don't like the law campaign to change it but the trans rights movement tried that and the resounding public response was no rape by deception is rape and claiming a special identity doesn't change that fact.

Trans Panic Defence is a well-known term for a reason.

It's not well known, I've never heard it before. Like Hoardasaurus, I'd like to see a few British examples of it.

Of course, I realise that the request will go forever unanswered.

Yes, I'm not seeing a campaign to repeal sex by deception on the grounds of biological sex is going to win the hearts and minds of the country.

Almost everyone wants to know the biological sex of the person they're considering entering into a sexual relationship with. Most people would use it as probably the first criteria, in fact.

Hence the law on deception.

I do have 1 question that you might answer though, why do you believe that your want to have sex with someone is more important than their right to give informed consent?

That’s an excellent question. If you don’t feel safe enough to be honest with someone about your sex, don’t have sex with them.

Yes, perhaps an argument that men may understand, too.

The argument that trans people have a right to deceive in order to access sex is a bold one.

I doubt a campaign would be very successful if the arguments we’re seeing here were used.

I can’t imagine there’s a snappy slogan that wins over hearts and minds if you go around equating not wanting to have sex with someone of the same sex as you with violent transphobia.

Again, I fail to see the similarity with other civil rights movements.

Particularly when the argument is <checks post from Monday> "the law says I'm only allowed to have sex if I wear a fake moustache."

If that is a belief held as genuinely as the belief that they are a woman then I think it is clear why we shouldn't permit sex by deception in order to accommodate it.

It can't just be GC women that find deliberate dishonesty quite unpleasant?

So you’re bisexual. That may explain why you don’t understand other people’s horror at having sex with the wrong kind of person.

I wouldn’t be hanging out with transphobes, racist, homophobes etc long enough to get to the sex stage.

Neither do I hang around with men much, outside of a work or activity context. Except the one I’m married to and our kids, that is.

Most bisexual people still want to know what sex a potential partner is.

It's not just about attraction; there is also risk assessment involved, pregnancy, etc

Oh I get it, but I’m wondering whether there’s an extra element horror at having sex with the wrong kind of person if you’ve never had, imagined, or desired sex with that kind of person.

Lesbians don’t seem offended I don’t view them as potential partners.
It wouldn’t cross my mind to be offended that gay men don’t fancy me.

Though to be honest I really don’t see why it’s an issue for anyone to not fancy anyone else. When you are at your most vulnerable, it really really matters who you are with.

Those poor women who thought they were in relationships with men who turned out to be undercover coppers.

If only we lived in a world where there were LGBT friendly pubs and clubs in all towns and cities, advertising their inclusivity with rainbow flags everywhere, dating apps that accommodate all forms of identity before you even see a photo of a potential sex partner and websites and social media where LGBT people and allies can meet and find enthusiastic potential partners, eh?

🤔