CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

[Chariothorses]

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

"To the point that they think that they should be able to not disclose what their sex is when this is needed. It is the righteousness that literally and figuratively drips off some people that defies believe."

And this isn't good for anyone, it simply sets the scene for distress, anger and tension.

A pluralist society, which Britain claims to be, needs members of society to understand that seeking to police other's thoughts and expecting them to pretend they believe things they don't isn't acceptable. Even as a lefty, I blame the authoritarian left for this.

Butch woman and woman with PCOS would have a much easier time if widely accepted social convention (and the law) was that only natal females will use them. The assumption would be that facial stubble or masculine appearance need to raise questions. The same applies to potential sexual partners.

They are confusing the law allowing privacy and the right to a family life, with secrecy, and are forgetting everyone elses right to consent.

Its a pointless lie, but having a marriage certificate saying a man married a women doesn't inpact on my right to consent. Pretending that sex is not important, or can change, or is on a spectrum is. And its a dangerous idea to be pushing.

Its not then privacy and the right to a family life, its an ideology being pushed onto society.

"Butch woman and woman with PCOS would have a much easier time if widely accepted social convention (and the law) was that only natal females will use them. The assumption would be that facial stubble or masculine appearance need to raise questions. The same applies to potential sexual partners."

'Use them' - this refers to single sex provision

The slight advantage in muscle development PCOS women have would still not let one, even one who exercised a lot, have male-type musculature. I'm sure someone has the relevant graph. Bone development is also instantly recognisable, particularly the hips.

Are these 'butch women' I never heard of until the last couple of years all a product of male fantasy. I once met a woman with a full beard, presumably because of PCOS or something similar. No one could have mistaken her for a man.

My mother regularly shaved significant amounts of stubble, she was very much a woman.

As with most instances though, a female person just has to speak and tell the truth (material reality truth, not a personal truth) and that is alll that is needed. This discussion of ‘abuse’ must surely come from some one laying false claims to be then investigated. And anyone, male or female, can be subject to that.

This entire scenario about male people with transgender identities being specifically targeted misses the entire point that anyone can be subject to false claims. But in the case of those male people, the ‘false’ claim may well be that true that the person did not disclose. And is then subject to a criminal charge, because they didn’t disclose the material reality of their bodies.

Trans people want to pretend they are something they're not, the opposite sex. They therefore want to break this law.

Women like you are not pretending to be something you're not, you just are a woman and therefore are not breaking the law

This CPS guidance was reported in the the press yesterday.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14226371/Prosecutors-predators-jail-free-card-cases-sex-deception.html

and the Telegraph too (link posted on other thread)
archive.is/MJkBk

An exclusion that allows trans people to lie about their sex will just make this legislation entirely useless. Who wouldn’t claim to be trans to dodge a rape conviction?

"Many people who have transitioned may not regard themselves as trans, but simply as a man or a woman."

This is one of the most ludicrous part of the guidance. They are not trans if they don't regard their gender identity to be different from their sex.

If someone tells people, including themselves, that they are not the sex that they are, they are lying - whether they are trans or not. The motivation could be different, but it is still a lie.

The guidance also says that “some may think it necessary to conceal their sex” to meet the condition of living in their new identity for two years before they can obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate.

They are the same men who think they have to use the same public toilets and changing rooms as young girls. The guidance would be better to put these mens concerns at rest and confirm its just id that needs to be changed.

The guidance also says that “some may think it necessary to conceal their sex” to meet the condition of living in their new identity for two years before they can obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate.

Yet another brick crumbling as to the fate of the GRC. If some people believe they have to ‘conceal’ their sex and deceive others to ‘live as ‘ their identity, it really shows this certificate as being very harmful in too many ways.

I think there are a few things to clear up here.

In the UK rape is if a penis is inserted into vagina, anus or mouth without consent.

Therefore a woman cannot be convicted of rape (I don't think dildos count) and anything else is sexual assault, so the sex by deception if the female deceived the other partner would not be rape, but sexual assault or this definition of sex by deception.

A trans women if having sex whilst having lied over their biological sex would not be convicted of rape unless they used their penis inside the other partner.

I find this whole scenario rather weird, and I wonder if it is again another attempt to use masculine women as a cover to precent tightening laws and regulations around trans women.

Rape is rape, there isn't "rape by deception". Women cannot be convicted of rape.

If this bizarre scenario existed when a man elected to have sex with a woman thinking she was a trans woman, because the woman has no penis she cannot be convicted of rape. Sex be deception would only come into play if the woman pretended to be a trans woman.

For real cases of sex by deception the police would have to look for evidence that reasonable attempts were made to deceive (like messages etc). Mistaken belief isn't good enough.

As always with the application of the law, the police and CPS would look it the scenario and see if it is worth prosecuting. There simply isn't going to be a world where masculine woman are instantly prosecuted for having sex with someone.

Yes @YesterdaysFuture -many women have PCOS, and women with PCOS don't get mistaken for men. (What is dressing' femme' ?- this is certainly not a common phrase amongst women) . We are women because of our sex regardless of our clothing choices.

Some misogynistic groups/ individuals have in recent years tried to remove female human rights to privacy, safety and dignity by comparing men who want to be women to 'women who have had mastectomies for cancer' or 'women who don't fit sexist stereotypes' as a cover to give men who say they are women extra rights that impact negatively on women as a sex. The memory that comes to mind is when a TRA Bristol University academic wrote a report stating that as some women have mastectomies due to breast cancer , men should be allowed to access female changing rooms as 'transwomen' - men who say they are women- are an example of 'non normative' women like women who have had breast cancer. It was one of the most offensive and misogynistic reports I have ever read, and from memory it was used by a few TRA organisations to try and end SS services for women.

The responses to this thread have made it clear how important it is for the law to confirm that if you obtain sex by hiding your sex, it is sexual assault/ rape, and this is a crime.

I agree with @Helleofabore that if transpeople use having a GRC as an excuse to hide their sex to commit sexual assault, it's a risk to everyone. It's of particular concern that some of these potential abusers try and access spaces for the opposite sex and where women/ girls are undressed and vulnerable.

The memory that comes to mind is when a TRA Bristol University academic wrote a report stating that as some women have mastectomies due to breast cancer , men should be allowed to access female changing rooms as 'transwomen' - men who say they are women- are an example of 'non normative' women like women who have had breast cancer. It was one of the most offensive and misogynistic reports I have ever read, and from memory it was used by a few TRA organisations to try and end SS services for women.

Peter Dunne. It was used as evidence for the GRR bill in Scotland IIRC. It stated that as women "tolerate" (the word he used) other women who have had mastectomies for breast cancer, they should also be ok with "other women with different bodies" ie penis havers.

Chariot asked: "What is dressing' femme' ?- this is certainly not a common phrase amongst women".

IME it is used by TRAs and gender identity believers. Normal speak would be along the lines of 'I often wear skirts'. However, in reality land, a woman (adult human female) with PCOS remains a woman whether she is wearing trousers or a skirt. Dressing femme or masc does not change your sex.

Over nearly a quarter of a century online (and how did that happen?) I have sometimes answered questions or responded to posts that did not seem to be in good faith because other, younger, less battle-hardened readers might take what is postulated in them as fact and need to see some realism. Easier than challenging a fellow poster, and more likely to be read.

That is a good approach Dean. As long as the poster isn't sealioning as if their life depends on it, it works well.

Yes I've never heard a female saying "dressing femme" or a male saying "dressing masc". At least not anyone heterosexual (which is quite important in this thread when talking about homosexual males and females sleeping with heterosexual partners whilst lying about actual sex).

I does only seem to be those within the gender ideology world who would use those terms.

It doesn't seem to be wearing clothes because they appeal or because they are practical. Its because they are linked to feminity or masculinity, the gender non conformity is the purpose not the consequence.

A woman would wear a skirt one day and trackie bottoms the next day and not have to label either themselves or the clothes. They may appear GNC sometimes but its accidental.

The femme dressing man needs the clothes to be gender coded, otherwise his identity isnt on display.

There is a dominant narrative in society that women need and want to attract men. Therefore, it is wise to dress in ways that men like. Whilst woman are silly not to do this, them dressing 'like men' is somewhat understandable, because 'who wouldn't want to be a man?'.

Conversely, men should dress as men. Any man who seeks to dress like women are ridiculous and deserve ridicule or scorn, because no sane/real man would demean himself in this way.

That's a lot of words to say "not everyone is bisexual and we should respect the sexual orientation of those who aren't".

46XY CAIS people should absolutely disclose their complete inability to become pregnant to a male sexual partner, just as Carlos Delacruz should have disclosed to her girlfriends that she could not make them pregnant.

Whether parenthood is possible absolutely affects whether someone's consent is truly consent.

Whilst woman are silly not to do this

Tell me that you've never been sexually harassed without telling me that you've never been sexually harassed.