CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

[Chariothorses]

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

I think if you are a female person, and you declare you are a female person you have done all you can at the time.

It sucks that some male people have made this an issue as they they have. . But unfortunately I don’t think anyone is safe from this law if someone wanted to use it as a tool of abuse.

Personally I can't fathom why the police spies cases don't amount to rape by deception. This was state sanctioned abuse of women and it's utterly repugnant. The fact that the courts don't recognise it as such is just a sign of how misogyny is still rife within our society and institutions.

100% agree.

Glad you found Mumsnet and this thread.
Hopefully your mind has been put at rest from the replies. If you're not lying about your sex, then this doesn't apply to you.

I never have lied about my sex, and never would.
I guess my point is that I'm concerned the law could be used maliciously, and especially against women who don't appear "feminine enough"
I heard about this law, and this thread seemed to be the only place on the Internet talking about it, thank you for having me!

Thank you for coming here.

Meh. Butch women being taken as men is a bit of a trope that many transactivists use to try to shame women out of having boundaries. And we're very keen on boundaries on Mumsnet.

Still - welcome to Mumsnet and all that. Amazing what google throws to the top of a search these days

It's a law that aims to ensure that people don't lie about their sex, so it really isn't going to be an issue if you're a woman not pretending that you're a man.

The convictions I've seen for this have all been for women who have deliberately claimed to be men in order to have sex with straight women.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/mersey-cheshire/news/woman-wh

https://www.cambs.police.uk/news/cambridgeshire/news/2023/december/woman-sexually-assaulted-partner-in-ultimate-deception/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-34843973

https://www.hampshire.police.uk/news/hampshire/news/news/2020/january/woman-who-dressed-as-teenage-boy-to-sexually-abuse-young-girls-is-jailed/

I'm not butch btw
I'm being honest that I have some features, like facial hair, that I am ashamed of, that I try to cover up, but that doesn't make me a man. I don't think anyone has thought I am a man.
I'm worried that someone could use the law maliciously against me, people like me, because it feels like an impractical law.

I'm big on boundaries too, I think lying about marital status should be rape by deception. If someone explicitly lies about the sex they were born, that's deception.

But it feels like there's an enormous amount resting on assumptions, on what people look like, and if those rules apply to trans people, they are going to apply to people who aren't trans too. Including people like me.

Isn't it.

Good of you to reassure this individual about their totally real situation, even though it could be resolved with their completely genuine birth certificate proving they're female.

MN is truly a public service.

Amanita, please can you share what it was you read/heard that made you think that having masculine characteristics had a baring on criminal liability for sex by deception. It would be helpful to understand what misinformation or poor communication is circulating.

"But it feels like there's an enormous amount resting on assumptions, on what people look like, and if those rules apply to trans people, they are going to apply to people who aren't trans too. Including people like me."

I have no idea what you are talking about. Sex by deception has nothing to do with appearances. It's about lying about your sex.

Glad you found Mumsnet and this thread.
Hopefully your mind has been put at rest from the replies. If you're not lying about your sex, then this doesn't apply to you.

This. The thread should be reassuring.

Basically, do I have to declare that "I am a cis woman" before any sexual contact?

There's no such thing as a "cis woman" so no. Just don't mislead people about your sex and you'll be good.

I don't think this is likely to be a problem for you, but if you're with a man and worried but don't want to say 'you know I'm a woman, right?' a murmur of 'I'm on the pill but you must use a condom anyway' should leave matters quite clear.

With a woman if you're worried go with the 'you know . . . ' bit.

That said, I'm old enough to think having sex with someone you've never had a conversation with is high risk in many ways, particularly for women. Ditto having a sex life involving brain -altering or -numbing substances.

Mental clarity and conversation don't leave much space for confusion around what sex a person is.

Some people are missing the point of this law. Its to protect vulnerable people and people in vulnerable situations. I think some are assuming that its the trans person who is the vulnerable in every sexual situation, but that really isnt true.

Not caring about the sex of the person you jump into bed with is the niche opinion, not the otherway round. Hiding your sex is a niche passtime, not the norm. Expecting everyone to confirm the sex of the partner, who is doing all they can to hide their sex, is trying to normalise the unusual and marginalised normal behaviour. Its queering everyones sex life.

I don't think anyone has thought I am a man. I'm worried that someone could use the law maliciously against me, people like me, because it feels like an impractical law.

If you are a woman who has never been mistaken for a man and who has no intention of pretending to be a man in order to have sex with someone you really have nothing to fear from this law. How do you imagine someone could use the law maliciously? They would have to accuse you of having lied about your sex in order to have sex with them. This would be equivalent to making a false rape claim.

AmanitaFTW

This law is about deliberate deception in order to obtain sex. Not about people wondering why you might have stubble. If a potential sexual partner makes the mistake of thinking you're a man, it's not you doing any deceiving, is it?

As long as you haven't told anyone that you're really a transwoman, in order to have sex with them, you haven't done anything wrong.

Previous examples on here have been biological men going out of their way to make a potential partner (and everyone else) think they're a woman.

The law can't be 'maliciously used against you', unless you've broken it.

The scenario that someone assumes they are having sex with a man pretending to be a woman, but is in fact having sex with a woman could in any way be illegal is madness. Unless that woman says she's is a man pretending to be a woman. Its the lying part that is wrong.

We are living in the real world, not a trans utopia, when someone says they are a woman or man and sex is important, it has to be assumed that they are the sex a reasonable person would assume.

Trans people will have to come to terms with the fact that when sex is important, concealing it is wrong. If that means they would be outed, so be it. They have the choice to avoid those situations.

"Trans people will have to come to terms with the fact that when sex is important, concealing it is wrong. If that means they would be outed, so be it. They have the choice to avoid those situations."

This is where psychology took a very poor turn in trans health care. Originally, a positive outcome was considered to be achieved when 'patients' understood their 'transition' to be a process they undertook to help them feel more comfortable with their natal sex. It was recognised that being misgendered or having people code you by your sex rather than gender was upsetting but resilience was required. Now, many/most practitioners consider efforts to build resilience 'victim blaming'.

Support for trans people should include helping them understand that not everyone thinks gender identity is important and not everyone believes transition results in changing sex; furthermore, many (most) of these people neither hate trans people and certainly don't want to harm them. Within this context, 'outing yourself' whilst psychologically upsetting, will feel less overwhelming.

Its queering everyones sex life.

Yes. Deliberate deception about one's sex in a sexual relationship 'vitiates consent', which is a legalistic and polite way of saying its rape or sexual assault.

I get the sense that duper's delight is a common fantasy for some - 'going stealth' in terms of sexual relationships is the intent to deliberately deceive.

Meh. Butch women being taken as men is a bit of a trope that many transactivists use to try to shame women out of having boundaries.

Yes, masculine women in the ladies means we can't have single sex spaces.

And now women with PCOS means sex by deception is too impractical a law to implement.

Poor us, we can't stop fucking it up for ourselves.

I am struck by how hard of thinking people are assumed to be (are?) in relation to claims that laws that can't readily be policed/controlled shouldn't be introduced. Our society is littered with laws where violations can't readily be prevented. People are expected police themselves and abide by the law.

I wonder if when drink driving laws were brought in, people argued they were pointless as people can just get in a car and drive and you can't always see that done e has been drinking. I wonder if people thought domestic violence laws were not feasible because this happens behind closed doors, so no-one knows and perpetrators are often thought to be fine, upstanding citizens.

It's ridiculous!

Agree that this concept that everyone has to be supportive of someone’s identity, that anyone who demands their identity be fully accepted should have this artificial ‘safety’ ensured is counter to the ability to live in the world and make healthy decisions.

That a group should be supported by society to only ever have their chosen and artificially curated reality enforced for everyone they come in contact with was never achievable and surely must be considered unhealthy. And that this group of people now believe that this privilege that society has been told to extend to them is needed for their ‘survival’ and is morally right can not be celebrated as success. To the point that they think that they should be able to not disclose what their sex is when this is needed. It is the righteousness that literally and figuratively drips off some people that defies believe.

While we are supposedly now having to teach our children resilience, there does seem to be a distinct lack of it being counselled for this group of people. Indeed, the ability to claim oppression seems to be at the forefront of this movement.

That is how it has always come across though.

And the way that some posters frame it , and the language they use to state it is DARVO.

Like that question that signal asked which got the answer that if you weren’t aware of the poster’s preference for obscuring their views with what they just see as romantic embellishments and attempts at intellectualising their statements to leverage in some borrowed appeal to authority. They tried to obscure their answer and even had a go at me for bluntly stating their answer.

Stealth is in their actions and their interactions. But the hilarious part of it is despite all attempts to obscure the meanings of their words, or to support them with false intellectualism, or whatever, their interactions have generally been very clearly male. No stealth could hide it!!