Could we ban "transvestigating" threads on here?

[Christinapple]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5225715-ilona-maher

This one for example. Transvestigating is an informal term given to when people play detective and try to determine if a given person (usually a woman) is transgender or not from how they look e.g. photos.

I've seen it more than a few times on Twitter anytime a woman who is tall or muscular or "masculine looking" appears. Quite often, women are wrongly mistaken for being trans.

As well as being transphobic, IMO this harms all women and reinforces stereotypes of what men/women should look like. And the idea of obsessing over people's appearances like this just doesn't sit well with me.

I'm not a fan of it either but it sure is a handy scientific prefix sometimes. I'll stop if you'd prefer.

I find the term transwoman without the space offensive, alongside the term TRA (when used to denigrate through comparison with the perjorative MRA), and male (when used in a context that clearly demonstrates intent to misgender).

I also find the term 'transperbole' offensive as well as it demonstrates an offhand dismissal of the lived reality of a marginalised minority.

On average, how much did the rate of hate crimes against trans people increase since 2017?

InvisibleBuffy · Today 13:23

I'm also very, ahem! sceptical of that post.

I assume given the thread topic, what Butters means by "stochastic terrorism" is along the lines of "women are increasingly aware that a woman in a woman-only space who seems somewhat masculine may actually be male and are therefore starting to be more questioning of such people, which makes them feel unsafe."

Yes, Butters experiences women having boundaries and insisting on their right to enforce them as "Terrorism".

Although let us have no doubt, Butters sympathy is not for women who may be mistakenly challenged, but that men are now getting found out. (Original sex-based meaning in both cases)

I'm not a fan of it either but it sure is a handy scientific prefix sometimes. I'll stop if you'd prefer.

Lots of prefixes are "handy" but are offensive and so we do not use them.
It has been pointed out to you several times that people do not want you to use this term but you continue to do so.
It is not "scientific".

Define 'hate crimes'.

When we call people male we are referring to their sex and therefore aren't misgendering. You can't decide to use a pre existing term to mean something different and then complain that people carry on using it the way we always have done.

If you decided to call apple juice coffee, don't complain in a café when you order coffee and don't get apple juice

Weirdly, though, they never once targeted me. I've walked right through groups of anti-trans activists hurling abuse at any visible trans people they see over the last few years; I even had to stop and ask them to please get out of the way so I could get to my train once.

That's very interesting indeed, all the footage I've seen on news reports and online have shown the exact opposite, screaming, baying mobs of TRAs hurling threats and abuse at women, as well as assaulting them. I've never seen the opposite, with women screaming at TRAs.

Is there some sort of parallel internet, where the videos have been posted?

I am a biological woman - always have been and always will be. I have size 10 feet, I'm 6 foot tall and I have a scar on my neck which makes it look like I have an Adam's apple (from some angles).

I lose count of how many people in my life have speculated on my gender (particularly at school and college) and called me a man and it's completely humiliating. Some women just look like this.

So I'm in support of this.

Why not ask the body recording them?

Are the "cis women" friends of yours who were misgendered as men in your presence also part of an oppressed minority?

Also, how does that happen? I'm taller and blockier than average, tobacco has impacted my pitch, very much a dikey dyke, and it still doesn't seem to happen to me.

Which body is that?

Chersfrozenface · Today 14:26

Define 'hate crimes'.

Looking a bit perturbed, when a transw gets on the bus.
Not agreeing that they are 100% real genuine women.
Objecting to naked men transw flashing their bits in changing rooms.

There are probably a few more.

Would you like to find a very clear definition of what constitutes a hate crimes against someone with a transgender identity? Because a far as I could work out it includes misgendering and stickers.

And what is the relevance of the hate crime statistics to my post exactly ? Please state it clearly without any of the obfuscating accusations or catastrophising statements that have become standard now.

Chersfrozenface · Today 14:28

Which body is that?

The Ministry of Most Oppressed and Most Marginalised and Most Vulnerable People in the History of the Universe, I think.

Good news on the trans hate crime front - they dropped last year.

Despite what men think, women saying no to men is not an act of hate.

You also pay for it yourself......and don't seek remedy from the NHS when it goes wrong or leads to dysfunction.

I think you'll find that most people are upset when their own body, or the body of a loved one, especially the body of a child, is disfigured, maimed or badly damaged in some way. A whole, healthy and functional body is a beautiful thing. Have you never taken delight in the fingers and toes of a newborn, or marvelled at the miracle that is their body?

I'm not sure I believe the bit where you say that "anti trans activists were hurling abuse"?

My experience of women's rallies, meetings and so on is that the abuse is all the other way. Women may chant, at very worst, " Trans women are Men"...and that is simply true. women are generally meeting up to discuss issues, not wave banners and scream at trans activists. It is they that turn up to disrupt and shout.

At the end of the day, if women knew we could 100% trust that anyone described as a woman or entering a woman only space or event was a woman under the original sex based meaning, not the holds-a-special-paper meaning or the I-had-surgery meaning or the I-am-if-i-say-i-am meaning, women looking suspiciously at other women would not be a thing.

it's not happening because women suddenly decided to start "policing femininity". It's not happening because women suddenly forgot women can look masculine. It's happening for one reason and one reason only : because men started turning up where they should not be.

Just to clarify because I couldn't edit my comment and it's bugging me: I meant it is not scientific in this context. In chemistry, yes.

To be fair to Butters, there are anti trans groups and trans people do face genuine abuse.

I assume Butters is speaking of these groups and not of women who say no to male colonisation of woman's language and women's rights.

These groups do not support Feminism or women's rights even if they sometimes try to force team with us.

I'm sure Butters would not attempt to leverage the hate trans people get from reactionary groups to attempt to discredit Feminists who simply say that sex matters more than gender when it comes to women's needs and rights.

“clinicians are assuming you are here to attend maternity departments”

I can’t really remember this ever happening to me. Trying to imagine how this looks. Even if presenting one’s self at the desk in a maternity unit, I’m not sure any assumption would be made that one was a patient, unless there was noticeable evidence of likely pregnancy. Why would anyone who knows they aren’t pregnant present themselves for an appointment (the main reason someone would assume the person is a patient)?

Gynecology would have been more believable, though it has made me contemplate the possible presence of a significant beer gut. 😂

But is it really happening in real, day to day life?

I'm broad-shouldered, muscular, taller than average, have a deep voice. I have friends who are taller by 4 inches and obviously even wider.

We still don't get "misgendered".

Maybe Butters has a big ol’ 80s darts player beergut that looks a bit like a pregnant belly to hospital security staff who left their spectacles on the sink that morning?